Torture and The Bush/Cheney Legacy

Torture - America's Shame

“…the question of torture – and the United States’ embrace of inhumanity as a core American value under the presidency of George W. Bush – remains, in my view, the pre-eminent moral question in American politics. The descent of the United States – and of Americans in general – to lower standards of morality and justice than those demanded by Iranians of their regime is a sign of the polity’s moral degeneracy.”

[...]

“This is what Bush and Cheney truly achieved in their tragic response to 9/11: two terribly failed, brutally expensive wars, the revival of sectarian warfare and genocide in the Middle East, the end of America’s global moral authority, the empowerment of Iran’s and North Korea’s dictatorships, and the nightmares of Gitmo and Bagram still haunting the new administration.”

“But what they did to the culture – how they systematically dismantled core American values like the prohibition on torture and respect for the rule of law – is the worst and most enduring of the legacies. One political party in this country is now explicitly pro-torture, and wants to restore a torture regime if it regains power. Decent conservatives for the most part simply looked the other way. Unless these cultural forces in defense of violence and torture are defeated – not appeased or excused, but defeated – America will never return the way it once was.”

You’ll need to read the entire piece to understand why Sullivan writes…

“Our job, in other words, is to raise the core moral baseline of Americans to that of Iranians. That’s the depth of the hole Cheney dug. And it’s a hole the current GOP wants to dig deeper and darker.”

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Comments

Larry says:

August 25, 2009 at 2:55 pm

And then, there is this way of looking at it:

“Here is what we know that is factual and can’t be disputed: between 9/11/2001 and 1/20/2009 there were ZERO attacks by foreign terrorists on US soil thanks to information extracted from terrorists and terrorists “suspects”. During that same time period FEWER US soldiers (and soldiers of our allies too) died thanks to information extracted from terrorists and terrorists “suspects”. Those two facts are the only thing that matter to me and 99% of my fellow patriotic US Americans.”
NathalieD says:

August 25, 2009 at 3:42 pm

You did get 1 out of 3 right. Yes there were no attacks on US soil in that time period. The second statement is misleading. There are a number of reasons why there were no attacks. Most of the measures taken after 9/11 which prevented further attacks had nothing to do with torture. Lastly, no, 99% of Americans do not agree with your end justifies the means narrow-minded thinking. Your definition of patriotic American is typical of imbeciles who have no concept of American values. How unfortunate that any American would believe that torture is acceptable under any circumstances.
anteater says:

August 25, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Torture is not only illegal, it’s unamerican. End of story.
Dahl says:

August 25, 2009 at 4:27 pm

@Larry I think we all can appreciate that fact. However, facts also show there were ZERO attacks from foreign terrorists on US soil from February 26, 1993 to September 11, 2001.

Since CIA and FBI cannot always disclose how they obtain information that should be excluded as fact.
janine says:

August 25, 2009 at 5:15 pm

So, Larry, what you saying basically is that it’s okay to act like a terrorist while interrogating a terrorist as long as we get ‘information’ from them.
Larry says:

August 25, 2009 at 5:51 pm

Note the quotation marks. I didn’t say it. It was from an opinion letter in the paper. I didn’t think it would be proper to quote the man’s name. But I wouldn’t disagree with anything he said.

@nathalie – I just disagree. If your child were being held, what measures would YOU exclude to get information pertinent to his or her safe return? People that disagree with your naive view of the world don’t necessarily have to be imbeciles. Thank you.

@anteater – I would say NOT doing everything in your power to prevent the deaths of American’s, or of anyone for that matter, would be even MORE UN-American.

@dahl – USS Cole in 2000, 1998 US Embassy Bombings. Although not on US soil, we haven’t experienced similar attacks either.

@janine – I’m saying by any means necessary. When “Pretty please with honey on top” don’t work, you need to be more creative. Besides that, and I won’t resort to calling you names as you guys do, but is it fair to say what we are calling “Torture” even begins to rise to the level of what REAL Terrorists do to our people when they capture them? I think not.
Jovial says:

August 26, 2009 at 8:28 am

Larry,

I don’t understand why you stopped at 1/20/09 when you could have gone to 8/24/09 ?????

If America is going to take a leadership role,we have to show the world that our values are above and beyond. You don’t go down to their level which is why we don’t negotiate with terrorists. The middle east has backward countries that do not respect human rights but have extreme groups that enslave people by the fear factor. It will take years to open them to the twenty first century.Iran shows signs of revival and that is because of our leadership.

Torture is forfeiture of our responsibilities to the world. If the world isolates America,there isn’t enough guns,ammo and torture to take us out of grace.
Larry says:

August 26, 2009 at 10:10 am

@Jovial – So, do you think the Islamic World is going to embrace America because some naive Politicians with dangerous authority investigate, publicize and punish transgressions? Or do you think it’s more likely they will use these revelations to inflame further hatred against the US and exact revenge for these perceived wrongs on our citizens in harm’s way around the world?

I don’t see how any reasonable, intelligent person can think any good can come from Holder’s ill advised and ignorant actions.

btw….as I said, it was an opinion letter I copied. Those are the dates that were stated.