Backwards thinking and religious dogma wins out in Missouri.
Missouri voters Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a state constitutional amendment that supporters said will protect religious freedom.
The measure — Amendment 2 — says Missourians’ right to express religious beliefs can’t be infringed. It protects voluntary prayer in schools and requires public schools to display a copy of the Bill of Rights.
As Glenn Church over at Foolocracy notes, the First Amendment pretty much has voluntary prayer covered. “No law prohibits anyone in a school, on public property or anywhere else from privately praying.” Exactly, but that hasn’t stopped Missouri from ensuring protection for religious freedoms by introducing the following amendments.
- Ensures the right to pray individually or in groups in private or public places, as long as the prayer does not disturb the peace or disrupt a meeting
- Prohibits the state from coercing religious activity.
- Protects the right to pray on government property.
- Protects the right of legislative bodies to sponsor prayers and invocations.
I’ll be anxious to see what happens the first time a Muslim student in Missouri invokes their right to pray and lays down a prayer mat in the school cafeteria. Any bets on how quick school authorities intervene and claim that the student was disrupting the peace?
In any case, Missouri felt the need for even greater protection, so they added the following doozy of an amendment. It’s straight out of the religious right’s wingnut playbook.
- Students need not take part in assignments or presentations that violate their religious beliefs.
Lovely. So if Bobby Boucher decides one night that he’s not into doing his biology homework on evolution because it goes against his momma’s teaching of a 6000 year old earth, he doesn’t have to…and now he’s got the state constitution to back him up. Glenn sums up the madness perfectly.
The concept reeks of impracticality.
Besides, this will only create a school system where science, facts and critical thinking are secondary to opinion and belief. The U.S. is supposed to teach its children to become adept in a technological society, not walking them back to a medieval society or the American equivalent of Islamic madrasseses.
A student could decide to ignore the study of the history of non-Christian societies on the claim that studying pagan ways violates his or her religious belief. Algebra could be considered a violation of religious beliefs as it was discovered by Muslims. Conversely, an atheist student studying literature could refuse an assignment on Bible because it violates religious belief.
This amendment has the potential to turn education on its head. Instead of experts in the field of math, science, history and all subjects presenting what is the best known facts of today’s world, parents and students are going to be given veto power over classroom content. It is a recipe for chaos. Even worse, it is a recipe for ignorance. With this kind of backwards thinking, there is no way that the U.S. is going to catch its rivals in the industrialized world that always seem to edge the U.S. on academic scores.
Bobby Boucher’s mom would be so very proud of Missourians.
Future students from Universities in this stricken state may ultimately have to do an awfully lot of expensive post graduate work, I fear, in order to be able to compete in the real world of commerce and opportunity. If they plan to work at jobs in the real world, they will have to unlearn as much as their “Betters” gave them the right to learn in the first place. If this kind of nut-case-ed-ness keeps up, the time may come when Industry might refuse to accept accredation creds from a Degree earned in Missouri.
Case for fear of the highest level: Can anyone within the sound of my keyboard imagine being treated by a Medical Doctor or a Nurse Practitioner who holds a Degree from a Missouri Medical School or who has been licensed in that beleagured state? How would being treated by a health care provider who was raised to disbelieve Science sit with anyone out there?
What do liberals have against religion? You might not like it but this nation was founded upon Christian-Judeo principles. No one is forcing you to pray but let us that do take comfort in Christ’s teaching do so in peace.
As a Democrat I have no opposition to children being able to pray in school – but like someone mentioned in the article, it might cause trouble down the line, Muslims have to pray so many times a day, Jehovah witness’s can’t get involved in Christmas and Halloween – going to be interesting alright.
Marcus D. no one here would deny you your right to pray or for that matter to believe what ever you wish to believe. It is those who would take over the entire education system of a state or county to teach hog wash that I reject. Science is not evil, but teaching things that are blatantly untrue to innocent children is and using the tax dollars of unsuspecting tax payers to promote religion in schools is wrong. Sunday school is for teaching religion and school is for secular education and I want to see it stay that way.
Marcus D says: “What do liberals have against religion? You might not like it but this nation was founded upon Christian-Judeo principles. No one is forcing you to pray but let us that do take comfort in Christ’s teaching do so in peace.”
I object to someone saying that I have anything against religion. The way I look at things a statement like this one infers that Liberals do not approve of religion. I am a Liberal and a Christian. Many of my Liberal friends are Christians. Liberals do indeed honor, respect and participate in religion. The idea that Liberals are godless is something that the far Right Extreme likes to push as propaganda.
The nation was not founded either on Christian Judaeo principles or on The Bible or on Christian Teachings or any of that other hogwash the Far Right likes to spread. That kind of stuff is strictly Rightie Revisionist history. The Founders were by and large Secularists and they took great pains to make sure religion was not the central thesis for the founding of the country.
Thomas Jefferson even wrote his own version of The Bible from which he removed all inferences of the Divinity of Jesus. That is some kind of A Founder’s Christian intent, is it not?
Last item up for bids: I do not have a blessed thing against Conservatives, Republicans and other Right Wingers practicing their prayer or their beliefs or their religion as long as they are restrained from trying to manipulate the Law of the Land to make their narrow religious viewpoints capable of dictating to the rest of society – - – which is something that in my humble opinion, many of them are very adept at trying.
Marcus D. My sister also approves, nay demands, that students in a local school be allowed to stand around the flagpole in front of the school and pray each morning. I have absolutely nothing against religious freedom and prayer but I reminded her what Jesus had to say about public prayer in Matthew 6:5;
“And when you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward.”
If you are a true Christian you will heed the words of Christ and not try to make a public spectacle of your piousness. The only way your religious freedom is guaranteed is if the government remains secular.
Your comment that America was founded by Christians is also on shaky ground. Many of the founders who professed Christianity were followers of Unitarian Universalism and believed in neither the divinity of Christ or Trinitarian theology, both of which are avidly proclaimed by modern evangelicals, especially the followers of Dominionism.
Oh Marcus, there you go again — this country was NOT founded on Christian-Judeo principles – it was founded on the principles of the liberal (not conservative) John Locke.
You may also read a bit of history about the various religious sects who came here to escape the Church of England and the Catholic Church. The Scots, the Calvinists, the French Huguenots, the Catholics, etc. were all here right along with the Anglicans who were prolific (and state supported) throughout the colonies. One member of my family was a nun who helped to found the first Catholic Church in Kentucky in the early 1800s.
The Great Awakening between 1730 and 1745 changed the hold the Church of England had on the colonists – who were becoming more educated having left Europe.
The founding fathers – some were deists, some were not and some were religious and some were not – but all knew they would not tie the new country to a single religion or even to just Christianity.
If you will read the Declaration of Independence:
…“their” creator — not the, not yours, not mine, not that of the founders — you get to choose your own.
I realize the limitations of the history taught in our schools. But, that is no excuse. If you want to know why we are where we are, you need to know our history. And, today, you don’t even need a library card.
Oh Marcus, I see that all these good people took time out of their day to assure you that liberals have nothing against religion. You were mislead by someone as to the intent of liberals problem with religion teachings and legal matters. You should be relieved with all the explanations. Your heavy heart should be lightened. Your worries gone. All that you were told about progressives, was false. I would of thought, in your relieved happiness to finally learn the truth and with all your fears lifted, you would of surly popped back on this thread……to say……thanks.
The one thing that I think will never be repaired in this earthly existence is the ever-persistent hatred and bigotry of The Right Wing Extreme against Liberals, Progressives and Democrats – - – and, oh by the way – - – against everything and everybody that is not a perfectly-formed clone of themselves.
We can debate all day whether the Founding Fathers intended this to be a Christian nation. I believe it was their intent. You all feel otherwise. This point is not relevant to the overall point I was making. People of faith should be free to express themselves without fear of being persecuted. And yes, I do mean persecuted. Have you seen the story of an 18 year old kid suing his high school because they prayed as the graduation ceremony.
http://irmo.patch.com/articles/irmo-high-student-sues-over-prayer-at-graduation
This is what I’m referring to. Liberals like this kid suing over “unwanted exposure” and shoving their anti-religious beliefs down everyone’s throat. I don’t ask you to pray so don’t ask me to NOT pray.
Marcus – no one is asking you not to pray…but let’s look at this way:
Conservatives like this kid being able to pray and “expose” and “shove” their Christian beliefs down everyone’s throat. I don’t ask you to not pray, so don’t ask me to pray.
That you see is what true religious freedom is – the ability to believe or not. You can pray where ever you choose to pray — but you should not be praying in a place where public dollars are used where our own Constitution declares your government cannot impose any religion on you. Would you feel this way if the religion being imposed was anything other than Christian?
Since there are many, many, many more privately owned places in the country, than publicly owned, you have many choices where you can go to pray. You could even go to the mall and sit down a pray….assuming, of course, the private property owners do not object. (And, I bet if you wanted to, you could go out into the publicly owned forests where no one could see you and pray all you want to — and no one would object, even though you’d be breaking the law. Smile. The point is you should not be able to “shove” your particular brand of religion on anyone else.
There is a time and place of everything — in Christianity, it’s Sunday in a church; for Jews it’s Saturday, for Muslims it’s 5 times a day. Do you want Muslims interrupting the class 5 times a day to pray in school? Time that would taken away from your child getting an education?
Our children spend less time in school than children in many other countries – countries we compete with. And we are what – 27th now in math? I think their time would be better spent learning mathematics than watching others pray.
Markus, I must respectfully remind you once more that Jesus himself said that prayer in public, “that you may be seen of men” was, and presumably still is, only done for the glorification of he/she who offers the prayer. A prayer can be offered silently at any time or any place. I don’t know of even one liberal who wants to take that away from you.
As for your insistence that the founders intended this to be a Christian country I can only say poppycock. If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it… because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: “Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism.” The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.
Diana, please don’t tell me when I should pray or how I should practice my faith. Seriously, it is none of your business. If a teen wishes to quietly pray before classes begin by bowing her head and silently praying, what is it to you? How does that disrupt the classroom and why would anyone be offended unless they were anti-religious bigots?
I will grant you that if a Muslim attempted to pray in such a way, many on the right would find it offensive. I can only say that bigotry is not confined to any one political ideology.
Note that hijacking my name or that of anyone else on this site for purposes of commenting will not be tolerated.
John liming…
I believe you are correct in your assumption. This is what happens when you combine an organized religion with a political party. We have ended up with a GOP cult.
They teach that their message should be accepted using only blind faith. They tell you not to question what the “word” says. They make it a sin to think for yourself and they make anything outside of that bubble that they create for you “evil” and not of “him”. The brainwashing occurs under this pseudo-religious political party, where a hierarchy exists to make them think that some Americans are better then others.
Christians believe in Jesus, and they associate themselves with the holy and blessed lord. They are the good guys.
But like any great story, there has to be a bad guy, and he is to be found in the evil Satan.
So when an entire political party sees themselves as doing gods work, they are unable to compromise, and they will see as their mission, spreading the lords ideology upon this “blessed” nation. They are actors in a play that was written thousands of years ago. And they know the ending! So like any great story, there has to,be a bad guy. And there is. Anyone who doesn’t think like them. Liberals.
I’m not telling you how to pray or when you should pray — you, however, have no right to impose your religion on anyone else in a place for which public dollars were expended in order to create that space. If you want to pray quietly there, so be it — but in doing so, you then must allow others to pray there — even if it is 5 times a day. You see you can’t have it both ways. If you want prayer in a government supported location, then anyone who chooses to pray would be able to pray there – and that means anyone, no matter what their religion is.
How about these – I’m sure you’d love our school children to be (literally) exposed to these, right?
Wicca
In many modern NeoPagan religions, such as Wicca, social and ritual nudity are (relatively) commonplace. In Wicca, the term skyclad is used to denote ritual nudity as opposed to social nudity.
Jainism
In Jain religion there is major sect of Digambar Jain, whose monks remain nude.
How about those freaks from Westboro Baptist Church?
There is a time and a place for everything. Our schools are not the place.
Diana M., your argument fails because it leaves out the government’s right to impose limits on freedoms. You are allowed to drive but only within strict limits. You can own guns but automatic weapons are banned. You have the right to assemble but only if it does not disrupt the peace. All freedoms have restrictions. Allowing voluntary prayer would have similar restrictions. Nudity would of course be prohibited.
And wala – you’ve just made my case — prayer is restricted in public places. Feel free to pray anywhere else you choose.
Let us depart for a moment from the constant Right Wing Meme that always seems to complain about someone on the Liberal side wanting to restrict their religious freedoms and get down to the nitty gritty of a little Truth here.
Liberals don’t give a Peck’s Damn about restricting anyone’s religious freedoms. In fact, Liberals support Religious Freedom and have fought and died on the battle fields of the world to protect it.
What I believe Liberals object to – - – and I know this is one of my personal irritants – - – is the seeming predisposition of Right Wingers (Particularly the Fundamentalist types) to want to manipulate Laws and Legislations to impose their religious views onto all the rest of us.
I don’t care if Rightie prays on every rooftop and on every street corner as long as I am not eventually required by the Law of the Land to have Religious Fundamentalism shoved down my throat and to have it dictate what I can hear, do, see, wear, think and say – - – and I have every reason to believe this is their end game and they will be satisfied with nothing less than a complete take over of the government and imposition of some kind of Theocratic Republic that will be totall repressive and dictatorial.
I think they feel, for the most part, Divinely Ordained to become the “Kings and Princes” (Rulers) of the world – - – that this mis application of Scripture is part of their fantasy about conditions that must prevail before they can realize what they see as fulfillment of their Eternal Destiny.
Some of this is based on ideologies based on Old Ante Bellum Aristocracies and some of it is rooted in something called “Dominionism” which can be researched at Wiikipedia.
But the arguments about freedom to pray and the lies about Liberals wanting to restrict religious freedoms are nothing more than political smoke from people who wish to dominate the world. That is my opinion and I think the march of events gives credence to what I am proposing here.
I heard one Republican who is running for The Senate tell someone the other day that Liberals are totally godless and hate religion.
That is total BS but it seems to be part of the Right Wing psyche.
Marcus, I have decided to convert to the “Snake Waving Religion” of some of my Appalachian neighbors. Of course I will also be trying to convert my grandkids and their friends to this one true religion. We believe that our sincerity in prayer is only evident if we waggle poisonous serpents about while we pray. As long as my converts don’t try to wave the snakes too close to unbelievers don’t you think this form of devout supplication should be allowed in public venues, such as schools?
Hallelujah, John!
Dear Charlie Sommers,
I agree with what you have suggested here but I have a different problem. I want every public school to build a fire pit so I can practice walking on glowing hot coals which is part of the new religion that I have been looking at.
Don’t put words in my mouth, John. I never said that liberals were godless. I’m sure you have some fine people of faith on your side. What gets me is the hypocrisy of people like you, Mario, Diana, Charlie and most liberals I know. You whine about intolerance in America and yet you support spiritual restrictions in schools. I can’t think of a better way of nurturing understanding among young people of the great diversity of our nation than by allowing young Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others to pray side by side. The only thing that religious suppression nurtures is intolerance.
Liberals have allowed a few whack-jobs like Bachmann and Palin to discredit all conservatives. We’re not all bigots and homophobes. The majority of conservatives are tolerant, caring people. Maybe one day you’ll come to know this.
Thank you Marcus for explaining it so well. Liberals are embarrassed of their religious side and think it is better to express it in a closed room where no one could watch.
Thomas Jefferson is, along with Ben Franklin and Tom Paine, among my favorite of the founders.
“I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over
another.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Elbridge Gerry (1799)
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Vol. 1 Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law (1764). Published in The Works of
Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam’s
Sons, 1904,, p. 459.
“Religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
-James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston (1822-07-10)
“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his
Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received
various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his
divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy
myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.”
-Benjamin Franklin, As quoted in Benjamin Franklin: An Exploration of a Life of Science and Service (1938) by
Carl Van Doren, p. 777
redstategirl is an idiot.
“Thank you Marcus for explaining it so well. Liberals are embarrassed of their religious side and think it is better to express it in a closed room where no one could watch.”
Read you Bible sometimes redState girl, Pay particular attention to Matthew 6:5. Jesus said we should do just what you are making fun of us for.
Marcus, John never said that you said that liberals were godless, he was quoting someone. And reading your lovely vision of a tolerant America, with all young children worshiping side by side actually caused my coffee to shoot out of my nose.
Prayer doesn’t belong in school. As a child I remember praying in elementary school, and as young as I was I was aware of the unfairness to children of the Jewish faith, who also had to pretend to pray.
Maybe you haven’t noticed….but the wack jobs like Bachmann and palin are the republican party. All the conservatives who are not bigots and homophobes, the careing and the tolerant are now independents or democrats.
One of the evangelical leaders, from the 700 club, I can’t remember his name, actually said that the republicans should not talk about their true plans to introduce regilion into the government. Maybe because it would turn off republicans like you. I hope you like surprises.
To Marcus and redstate girl….you might be familiar with a book written by David Barton titled “the Jefferson lies” in which he rewrites history in his attempt to prove that the founders intended us to be a Christian nation.
The publisher has pulled it, because it is full of….well…..lies.
Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.”
How is a child taking a moment before class to pray to her Savior the same as a hypocrite praying at a street corner? Cynicism has warped your mind Mr. Summers.
Marcus—
I will tell you what I wish I could see more of (Some of…any of…) from Conservatives such as you describe here. I would like to see some of them standing up and publicly denouncing some of the craziness that you reference from the rogues. But I don’t even see the Rightie Leadership rebutting any of that nonsense for some strange reason. By my way of thinking, silence equals assent.
And the day that anyone can get all those different Faith groups to pray together in the same room, please let me know because in that day I may actually change some of my perceptions.
While we are on the subject, how is it that you have the knowledge and the wherewithal to judge me and Mario, Diana and Charlie as hypocrites? Is that a gift you were born with? Is it a skill you have acquired? Is it, perhaps, reflective of the respect for other people that you learned along the pathway of life?
Is there a reason you feel the need to indulge in negative personal references on an open forum?
Does that do something nice for you?
And oh by the way – - – the “Whack Jobs” that you talk about here need no help from Liberals to do the discrediting that you reference – - – they do a good enough job all by themselves.
Dear redState girl you cut Jesus short, if you would only have read a little further you would have noticed that he continued with these words, “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret.”
I didn’t notice any exceptions being made by Jesus for sweet little school kids. My name, by the way, is correctly spelled with an “O” rather than a “U” and I am still sharp as a tack at the age of 70.
Anyone who tries to interpret the Bible to suit their own needs, even the passages that are crystal clear, like the one above, are the cynically warped.
That’s what churches are for. If you want your school to teach your child religion, bite the bullet and pony up for tuition to a religious school. It never fails to astound me that the very public schools that conservatives hate and the horrible, secularized socialist union-thug greedy teachers that work in them are expected to be entrusted with the religious education and spiritual welfare of their children. Conservatives clamor for less and less government intrusion in personal lives yet expect government to impose religious standards. I do not hate religion (I am not an Atheist*, nor am I a Christian) but I do think that almost all religions are silly – including my own. What I do hate is the institutionalization of religion.
There is nothing preventing a child from praying quietly and silently in a public school. Every court decision regarding school prayer has affirmed this. But your conservative overly religious right-wing compatriots aren’t happy with that. They want it to be a big spectacle. They want state-imposed teacher-led public prayers in class with forced participation. Again, I say if that’s what you want for your children, pony up and sent them to a religious school or homeschool ‘em. Be it noted that the first major court decision, the Edgerton Bible Case, in 1890 forbade bible instruction in public schools and has been used as a precedent in every school prayer case since, was brought by Catholics who objected to their children being taught from the heretic Protestant King James bible instead of the only true and sacred Douay version.
*On the other hand, if Atheism and Christianity were my only choices, Atheism would win hands down.
Breaking news EA – Romney to pick Ryan.
I guess it wasn’t a very well-kept secret, was it? Romney/Ryan – the “RR” to conjure up the ghost of Ronald Reagan (speaking of whom, it was on this day in 1984 that Bonzo’s dad said, as part of a radio address sound check, “My fellow Americans, I’m pleased to tell you today that I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.”). The only good thing about Ryan becoming VP would be the opportunity for the people in his district to elect a non-sociopath.
Ryan does have better people skills than Romney, which is how he’s managed to keep getting re-elected in an otherwise working-class Democratic district. But where Romney’s disdain for the average American is born of his cluelessness, Ryan’s is the result of sheer, malicious ambition. Romney wants the title; Ryan wants the power. I think a Vice President Ryan would make liberals nostalgic for Cheney.
Cheney destroyed our foreign policy – Ryan will destroy the domestic one. Let’s hope the moderate Republicans they’re kicking out of state houses in the red states and their constituents are smarter than their RWNJ counterparts.
I’m so ashamed. I am originally from Missouri. Now I am glad not to live there any more.
Here’s my suggestion to the Religious Wrong: “If you refrain from praying in my school, I will agree to refrain from thinking in your church.”
I was raised in a neighboring state and one that is every bit as religiously radical as Missouri. When I was in school, 50′s & 60′s, we had voluntary bible school on wednesday mornings and the rest of the day was basicly the three R’s. Our school books were about serious education without teaching religious indoctination.
Now here we have the fringe element in Missouri wasting there legislative time and money passing a state constitutional ammendment reinforceing the 1st ammendment of the US Constitiution. WTF!!! Do these “law makers”(?) not have a clue what is in the US Constitution?
I grew up across the Mississippi River from St. Louis. Left there at the age of 41 and I’ll never go back. No clouddancer, they have no idea — they can’t comprehend what it means — only what they believe it means.