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A new survey of Americans’ knowledge of religion found that atheists, agnostics, Jews and Mormons outperformed Protestants and Roman Catholics in answering questions about major religions, while many respondents could not correctly give the most basic tenets of their own faiths.
While most people are born into their parent’s religion and stick with it for the duration of their lives, it’s usually a different matter for atheists and agnostics. They tend to evolve into their beliefs after some reflection and study.
And no, I am not implying that all religious individuals are idiots who do not ever reflect or study. Some of course do and come to form a stronger bond with their own religion. But I am suggesting that most people who refer to themselves as religious do not bother to ever question the tenets of their religion (or other religions) and choose to believe with little, if any, question or thought. Thus the poorer showing on the survey.
If you’re interested, Pew has an online quiz on religion you can use to test yourself.
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Confirmed atheist here. Took the quiz earlier today and got 14 out of 15 correct. Felt good in that the one that I missed was the one that MOST people missed, the one with only 11% of respondents getting correct. I did feel kind of good in that I was teetering between the correct answer and the one that seemed obvious (at least to me) which I took…
I took the quiz, and it only registered three correct, but that’s because I couldn’t get a decent connection, so whenever I clicked “Next” I got a timeout and those responses registered as “not answered”. However, I did get all fifteen correctly, although that last one (the 11 percenter) was part guess. I knew Billy Graham was definitely not in the running, making the odds 50-50.
I found this out by accident. I fall into the category of one who believes in God but doesn’t subscribe to organized religion. I have always been stunned by the way my Catholic & Protestant friends seem to know very little about their religion.
The biggest one to me is the Bible itself. Some of the most devout followers of (fill in religion as needed) have no idea what the friggin book has in it. They certainly seem to have no idea where the book comes from or who did the editing. “It is the word of God.” Right.
It would help if they were better educated about what they believe.
One of the most notable examples I ever ran across was a coworker who went on a rant one day over “Xmas”. After listening to him for a bit, I asked him if he knew where that ‘X’ came from, and he came back with it being an attempt to secularize Christmas. I wrote this down and showed it to him: “???????” and explained how the early Christians used the initial of that Greek word for Christ as an identifying sign. I then said, to no-one (and everyone) in particular that I was constantly amazed at how widespread people’s lack of understanding in their own faith was.
I took the test and got the question wrong about what Which of the following best described the Catholic teaching about the bread and wine used for Communion… been a long time since that was explained to me…
I think what people know about their religion is what they are told by their priest/pastor/swami, etc… I don’t think a lot of ppl do independent research into their belief system or books that comprise their belief system
Truthfully to me this whole post is crap. You imply that most people are born into to a religion, and just mindlessly follow that religion without question, but how much worse is it for atheists today. With the American school system nowadays the word “God” is almost forbidden to say in any public school. Kids are being force fed evolution none stop from the day they start school. Some of them are never even taught basic principles about different religions around the world. I know 16 year old kids who don’t even know what the bible is. So if you ask me it’s not the Religious kids who are mindlessly following its the atheists. At least most religious kids know the evolution theory, and have chosen to at least deny that and follow their own religion.
I was raised in a Methodist household. Though I never really got much into it, I was dragged to services from time to time and enjoyed learning about other religions.
I vividly remember studying the bible as a work of literature in public high school.
My kids know what the Bible is, what the Koran is, and what the Torah is, as well as at least bits and pieces of various religions from the ancient Greeks to religions of today. One is 18, one is 11. Perhaps the kids you know who don’t know these things were “educated” in Texas public schools?
Evangelical Christian here – I got all 15 questions right. I even have the same religious beliefs that I was raised with!!!
I would speculate that the poor results by “religious” folks in the Pew quiz are caused by those who claim to have a religion because they have some vague association with a particular denomination (e.g. they always were told by their parents that they were a part of a particular denomination such as Catholic, Methodist or Baptist, etc. so they grow up saying “I am [X]” without even thinking about it). However, in reality they do not fully implement the teachings of those groups into their life in any substantial way. For example, I know from experience that if you ask the average white American “what is your religion?” Many will respond with the denomination of whatever church they went to when they were a kid. Ask them when the last time they went was and they’ll generally say that it was quite a while ago.
I teach an adult Sunday School class at a Southern Baptist Church and I know for a fact that most of my students would have scored fairly well on this quiz. (I especially hope that they would know that Jonathan Edwards was associated with the First Great Awakening!).
It’s not the genuinely religious folks that are uninformed, but those who claim to have a religion that consists only in some involuntary past experience.
@bobbylee: I’m not “implying” that “most people are born into a religion and just mindlessly follow that religion without question.” I’m SAYING it is so.
As for schoolchildren being “force fed” evolution, they’re also being force fed nonsense like arithmetic and history and geography and chemistry and physics. It’s a real shame, isn’t it? It would be much better to teach them about talking snakes and burning bushes, I would think.
Southern Baptist here. Got 14 out of 15. Missed the same one only 11% of people get. Knew the ones on Islam and Buddhism through my muslim and buddhist friends.
They are right. People born into it just don’t bother to question or learn the tenets of their faith. I have seen it. I chose to get closer to my faith and there is definitely allot to learn. Crazy thing is none of it is difficult so there is no reason not to learn it if you claim to be of the faith.
Confirmed Catholic here (converted from Baptist after reading a LOT of early Christian history). I’m also a confirmed mathematician, computer scientist, philosophy and history buff. I answered 15/15 correctly.
@mario piperni
See this is why i hate America. They are so closed minded about every little thing. You say Religious people are mindlessly following their parents, and you get 10 people agreeing with how right you are. However, If I even mention that atheist are doing the exact same thing, then suddenly I’m a moron, and instead of trying to argue against me with real facts, you just make fun of my religion. We look back at a time when Africans were being sold as slaves, and think how stupid were we for being so racist. But your doing the exact same thing now.
Atheist always act like they know everything, but their theory is being changed almost none stop and every time it does the new theory is instantly the “truth”. Well my truth has been around for five thousand years. Lets just wait and see what the evolutionist’s theory looks like in another five thousand years. I wonder if it will even exist.
wow bobbylee…i am a religious person and understand your feelings about people ripping on religious people as being stupid or simple or sheep or whatever…but that comment went way too far. to compare yourself to slaves is just insane. frankly it is that kind of narrow mindedness that people are talking about. religion is a choice. slavery, by definition, is not. be proud of being a christian. dont let the naysayers bring you down. but dont try to be a martyr. and dont offend people who know more about suffering and bigotry and racism than you could ever possibly understand.
1. I said MOST religious people are mindlessly following. I also wrote this in the original post.
And no, I am not implying that all religious individuals are idiots who do not ever reflect or study. Some of course do and come to form a stronger bond with their own religion.
2. I did not refer to you as a moron nor do I believe you to be a moron.
3. I was not making fun of your religion. I don’t even know what your religion is. I was being sarcastic though about your comment regarding evolution being force fed to schoolchildren.
4. Evolutionary theory is not “being changed almost non-stop”. The mechanics of how the evolutionary process works are debated and evolving within the scientific community but the essence of evolution is pure scientific fact. It’s real and while your “truth” might have been around for 5 thousand years, evolution has been around for 3.5 billion years. We’ve got you beat. Sorry.
Mario. I totally agree with evolution and I am a Christian. AMAZING! I have never understood the counter argument. Furthermore, I can see no evidence that evolution kills religion. It may kill some sects, but not religion. God exists. He understands physics much better than we do. He uses natural laws to govern his universe. Why is that so hard for Christian people to consider?
I am a white southern Christian male and am anti-sin (homosexuality is sin btw).
My sin has been paid for by Jesus Christ.
Oh yeah, and I just scored 15 out of 15 for 100%. And I aint even all that smart… But all level of intellects can understand that they are sinners and need salvation before a just God. Jesus provides just that: SALVATION. Go look up the meaning of that word. Never saw a question like that on the quiz.
Here are 2 questions:
Who walked between the split animals during the making of a covenant in the old testement?
Hey man I really am sorry. After reading David’s comment I realised I was being the christian that I hate so much. I was being the hypnacryte who says that they love everybody, but doesn’t show it in their actions. I was the reason that so many people turn away from Christianity, and i really hate that. I wish I could go back and just delete my comments man, but i cant now. I just want to say I am sorry man. I respect evolution. In fact I think that evolution and creationism could work together very nicely. Sometimes I just get really caught up in these stupid arguments.
Scored 15/15 and left puzzled – these are relatively basic elements of religion. Is it because I am not American and was not born and raised in the U.S.A. or is it because I am an atheist that I am simply better informed?
I am an idiot. I got an 87, though I am not really religious, and I still did better than average. I got the question on the Jewish Sabbath wrong, and then, not reading the question through got the one wrong of is it permissible to read the Bible as historic text in class.
“Scored 15/15 and left puzzled – these are relatively basic elements of religion. Is it because I am not American and was not born and raised in the U.S.A. or is it because I am an atheist that I am simply better informed?”
I’m a Christian, and got 13 of the 15 right (the Bible permitted as literature in schools and the nirvana one).
I would just like to warn others that #6 is kind of a trick question. Transubstantiation isn’t confined solely to Catholicism, and not all Catholics believe that it happens. However, great quiz – if you say you adhere to a religion, you should know more about it than the average layman. And if you proclaim it to be the right one – and the only right one – you should have extensive knowledge of other religions, as well, in order to make that claim.
Baptist here, and I got 15 out of 15. I think more because I went to a Christian school and was taught most of this, than just because of my religion.
Also, I think it’s very common for a religious person to only know about their own religion, and not to bother learning about the others. Whereas, I can see people outside of any religion studying them all, so I find the results unsurprising.
I don’t know if my own religious education is anything to go by (it was Catholic), but in involved daily mass, lots of memorizing catechism (and parroting the answers), and a definite discouragement of asking real questions (including corporal punishment for expressing any agreement with evolution). The indoctrination problem arises from people who remain in the denomination or religion in which they are raised. I know the Catholic Church (both the institution and the parish) that I grew up with didn’t want the rank and file to know too much about theology or the finer points of doctrine. These were best left to the heirarchy or the elders. Even our study of the bible was not of the text itself; it was paraphrased by our teachers. It was only after leaving the church that I felt free to pursue more critical and wide-ranging studies. I suspect this is similar for anyone who leaves or changes a church; a certain amount of study is required to adapt to the new spiritual environment.
By the way, the issues of use of the bible in public schools is nothing new. There were bible riots in Philadelphia in the 1840s, and in Edgerton, Wisconsin, the first major lawsuit was brought about to limit the use of the book. It started in 1886, and had its origins in the fact that Catholic parents did not want their kids forced to study the King James version (Catholics preferred the Douay).
Given the fact that so many religious conservatives distrust the government and hate public education altogether, I am constantly amazed that they support the notion of “putting prayer back in the schools” thereby letting government-employed teachers leading their children in prayers and providing their religious education.
i took the quiz and im methodist.. I got 14 out of 15.. i guess when u want to know about the thing around u, u read and get knowledge to understand why are things the way they are..
I got 15/15, and guessed only one one. Not bad for an agnostic, eh? Anyway, Mario hit everything on the head. No one should be offended by what he has written on this subject, because it’s been proven true by this poll.
About evolution, Mario is right. It doesn’t speak one way or another about the existence of God, but I do have to add that it does speak against religious dogma and superstition. It used to be enforced that the Bible and religious beliefs associated with it or based off of it were the absolute final word. The irrefutable word of God himself. When these kinds of misconceptions were proven false, death and condemnation usually ensued, or these groups would (and still do in most cases) stubbornly resist the spreading of the true facts, or just ignorantly deny it when it came out.
I believe that once a group claiming that a statement is against the word of God, and the statement is proven true, then everyone should at least assume that that group or belief system needs re-evaluating. If in the end you are still religious, then fine. But blindly following despite facts is wrong. Evolution used to be blasphemous concept, going against the Biblical interpretation of our Genesis, but now science supports it. The fact that religious people used to condemn others who acknowledge evolution over the strictest literal version of Genesis, but now are changing (or adapting) their position on it, when it used to be the non-debatable word of God, speaks volumes to me. Then again, that’s probably why I’m an agnostic. But that’s probably why anyone who becomes an agnostic is worthy of the classification.
Yeah, i got 15 out of 15,and im “spiritual” and my religion has nothing to do with my score. I took a comparative religion course in college that showcased all major religions of the world and compared them. A large percentage of the people in the class were atheist who enjoyed trying to mock ALL the religions, not just Christianity, so yay for atheists not singling a single religion out. I noticed that although the people who identified themselves as theists may not be as open to other religions ideas, they were at least respectful; the atheists really did not hold back a punch and went out of there way to mock people beliefs. Finally, the teacher tore them a new one after he explained that atheists are no different than Christians or Buddhists, they all have their own beliefs and if someones differs, they will be hostile in order to reinforce their beliefs.
Survey is good but in itself is ignorant. Catholic is not a religion and so is Muslim. Catholic is a sect of Christianity. Muslim is a practitioner of Islam. There are others I might missed. Got 14 btw. Didn’t know the last question about the First Great Awakening. I guess it wasn’t great at all since never heard about it.
So, if erap’s never heard of something, it’s not important. If he’d never heard of Hans Oerstad, would he say he wasn’t important despite his contributions to the western world?
As to whether Catholicism is a religion or a denomination is open to debate, much the same as linguists debate whether two variations are separate languages or dialects. The point being that many Christian denominations deny the validity of other Christian sects. In my Catholic school, we were told, in no uncertain terms, that we were not Christians, we were CATHOLICS, and all the Protestants (except maybe the Episcopalians) were going to hell.
As for the Muslim/Islam thing, it’s just a matter of metonymy (you’ll probably have to search for that).
15/15. High Score. Protestant Christan for 19 years. Born into the religion 30 years ago. Accepted it for myself 19 years ago. Have had my questions but through searching have found evidence for my beliefs.
Also I have studied other religions and have determined one thing over and over again. If I’m right then everyone else who doesn’t believe is damned to eternal punishment in a literal hell. If I’m wrong, then I’ve lived a good life and by 99% of other religions I either get some sort of paradise or I just cease to exist. I win which ever way is true. So I put my belief in what is real to me and what will not harm me in end.
I do believe there is evidence to support the religion of Christianity and if one studies it with an open mind, they would be able to come to the same conclusion.
BTW Catholicism is a religion separate from Christianity. They hold to different foundational beliefs and have a different view of eternity, the role of man, and the purpose of Jesus Christ. Christianity broke form the Catholic Church thanks to the work of Martin Luther. Mormonism is a break from the Christian religion by a boy who grew up in the church but believed that a loving God could not condemn a person to Hell and formed a religion around his personal beliefs and formed a works based salvation.
Atheist have come to their beliefs for the most part from the lack of convictions of those around them and also because the idea that there is something or someone stronger than you is not cool with them. Also, to admit there is a God would require that you admit you can’t do it on your own and you are not ultimately in control of your own life. There is an element of responsibility that people are responsible for their own actions.
However, Islam is a religion that is based off of works and how good I can be to get me into Heaven. Works is a horrible way to make it there. There is nothing that I can do that is good enough to receive any type of Heaven. If I rely on my works, what makes my works any better or worse than anyone else’s. Christianity unlike every other religion is not based on how good I can be, but rather my acceptance that I can’t do it on my own and I must rely on a savior Jesus Christ to absolve me of the wrongs that I have done. If I rely on my own good merit, I will continually come up short. Islam is based in rules and regulations that trap the individual into a constant battle of trying to achieve perfection.
While many would say that Christianity is a religions of DO NOT’s, it’s rather a religion of discipleship. The do not’s are simply a guidance and a path to the DO’s and GET TO’s. If you study the Do Not’s of the Bible you will find that most of them if done will lead to suffering and hardship. So the Do Not’s actually are there for the benefit of the disciple who is striving to be more like the leader Jesus Christ.
Seth, you made me spit water out of my nose I was laughing so hard.
Christianity and the like may have their do’s and do not’s but they also have a built in get out of jail free card. You can do or act however you want — as long as you repent, confess your sins, you are forgiven and granted an entrance into heaven. So it really doesn’t matter how you conduct yourself in your daily life, there is the confess/redemption scape. Unlike some other religions or life disciplines where how you live your life dictates whether or not you achieve heaven, nirvana etc…
Janine, You like most people have a false understanding of what Christianity is. Most people that claim Christianity only do so because they go to church on Christmas or Easter or they know what the Bible is. A true follower of Jesus Christ will not conduct themselves in manner that is separate from the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Bible speaks clearly about what you have so plainly accused Christianity of being. Nothing more than words and no actions. Christ warns those who only speak the name and do not practice the teachings.
These will be paraphrased. For the full verse go look it up.
Romans 6:1-2 – Should we continue to sin so grace can abound. No. We have died to our sins and can no longer live in them.
Matthew 7:23-24 – Many will say they did great things in the Name of Christ, but he will tell them to go away because they never followed him (only in words but not in actions)
James 2:19 – Just because you believe there is a God does not make you a Christian. The demons believe in God and shutter, but they still burn.
A person who repents but continues to live in their sin and practice their sins because “all they have to do is ask and it’s forgiven” are not followers of Jesus Christ. They will suffer the wrath of a just God.
You’re right when you say “a built in get out of jail free card.” It is a free gift that you don’t have to do anything for. But if you truly understand that the gift you have received has released you from Hell, then you will devote your life to the one who made that possible. The lack of devotion signifies a lack of understanding. There are many people that go to church for the sake of going to church but they will never enter the Kingdom of God. And yes, they do a disservice to the Name of Christ. I apologize for every person that you have met who claims the name of Christ but never lives it out in their life.
@Seth, I think Janine was describing how many people act, not what any given sect’s doctrine is. I have met many people who professed any of several varieties of Christianity which are based on faith over works who are of the opinion that a deathbed proclamation of belief is enough to make up for any wrongs they may have done. An historical example: Emperor Flavius Constantine, who declared tolerance for Christianity during his reign, was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. He had a number of dark deeds in his past – murders of rivals to the throne, political assasinations and the like – so he asked the Pagan priests if he would be called to account for his misdeeds in the afterlife; they assured him he would. The Christian priests, however, assured him that baptism would give him a clean slate, and that convinced him to personally accept Christianity (by modern standards, however, he was baptized a heretic which negated his intention).
You can say “A person who repents but continues to live in their sin and practice their sins because ‘all they have to do is ask and it’s forgiven’ are not followers of Jesus Christ.” until you’re blue in the face, but that’s not important – you don’t have the standing to decide who can or cannot be called a Christian. What matters is how they believe and how they act, and whether or not there’s some minister somewhere enabling them like some living Chick tract.
@Rachel – who is the intended recipient of your comment?
Blair – Your are correct when you say that that I cannot say who is and isn’t saved. The Bible tells me “judge not lest ye be judged”. The most misquoted verse in the Bible (also the most quoted). I cannot tell the heart of a person and if their repentance was genuine or if it was just “fire insurance” (a popular phrase in the Christian community). However, the Bible also goes on to say that “by their fruits you will know them.” If you are a true follower and have had a true conversion experience then you will live like it. If you call yourself loving and never love you are a liar. If you say you are a Christian but don’t live by the standards, then you are only fooling yourself.
As far as death bed confessions, I can’t know the heart of a man, but the peace I have is that I don’t have to. Christianity is the only religion that does not require works for salvation (not even baptism), in James we read that “our works are as filthy rags. Are some death bed conversion genuine? Yes. Jesus even had one death bed confession/conversion in His ministry on earth. While he hung on the cross in Luke 23:43 He spoke to the thief hanging on the cross next to Him and said “Sure I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” This happened because in the verses preceding this one, the thief confessed his sins and belief in Jesus Christ as savior. He quickly died after his conversion and did no works to receive the gift. He was saved and did go on to heaven that day.
It doesn’t take a priest, minister, or water to save a man, woman or child. It only takes a genuine belief in Jesus Christ as Savior AND Lord.
Seth, I love it. You came right out and explained how you are hedging your bets by being a Protestant Christian. THAT is really honest.
The rest of the rationalizing about faith is weak. You don’t know the truth any more that the dude in Africa right this minute praying to a special tree. Sorry if that sounds rude. It is just that everybody says what you say about their own beliefs.
There is no proof that Jesus even existed. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t, it just means there is no proof.
There is, however proof that the Earth is NOT 6,000 years old.
There is proof that the Earth could not have been covered with water.
There is no proof that anyone has ever resurrected from the dead.
Need I go on. Believe what you like. But don’t try to PROVE that your interpretation of the Bible is right, or that I have to accept Jesus as my personal savior. You can’t prove any of it. It is all the same.
But kudos for admitting you are hedging your religious bets just to be safe. I am pretty sure that Jesus reads Mario’s blog. I hope he doesn’t take it the wrong way and think you are insincere.
Thanks, OCL. I was getting tires of this. All this blather about faith alone trumping good works just gives people an excuse to call themselves pious Christians while dumping their fellow man into the gutter.
Liberal – What proof do you have the earth is not 6,000 years old (PC say it could be between 6-15,000 years, not just 6,000). Personally I am one of the weird ones who believe in a Gap Theory of earth age (look it up, too long to explain). You don’t have evidence, only blind faith as you call it. Evolution is a theory as is Creationism. There is no scientific proof that Evolution is correct. By definition, a fact must be observable, measurable and repeatable. The only one of those that may be checked off will be measurable, although this is a stretch too. And true creation doesn’t meet the qualifications to be fact. They are both theories that are held to be by faith. There is evidence to support that which if found in the Bible. There are artifacts and other writings that have the information found in the Bible. There is evidence of a man walking the earth named Jesus Christ who had a large following and did things that were not explainable by traditional reasoning. By saying there is no evidence, then there is misinformation.
Show me the proof that the earth was not covered in water and I will show you the proof it was. Show me the proof that the Bible is not historically accurate, and I will show you the proof that it is.
To believe in the idea that this entire universe only happened by chance takes much more faith than believing that it was done by intelligent design. Evolution by mutation is bogus because mutations are historically destructive to the organism not constructive. Spontaneous generation takes much more faith than Intelligent Design. Was Darwin wrong with natural selection. Not totally. The stronger member of the species will survive and produce strong offspring, but they will not produce different species. Maybe different breeds will begin to emerge, but not different species all together. There is no evidence. The evidence presented is based off of the finding of one tooth or one skeleton that they have less than 40% of.
From you saying “hedging my bet,” well maybe. It was a point that I had to come to after seeking for what was missing. After studying other religions and beliefs. I found that Christianity was the only one that made sense when you considered it only for the ramifications of the afterlife. Since then I have grown in my understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ and have moved past the point of just hedging my bet. But for those that are still wondering what to follow, this was what originally moved me to say the others didn’t make sense.
Last, Jesus is reading every word I type and hears every word I speak. One day I will give an account for those words. I am not ashamed for anything I have said here. I know as I am typing or speaking I am doing it in front of the creator of the universe. I can tell my story and not have to leave out parts because I am ashamed. So no I don’t think my Savior and Lord will think I am insecure. Do I deal with doubts? Sure. We all do. But my Father in Heaven continually reveals himself to me to give me confidence in my convictions.
@Seth, I know your question was addressed to @Liberal re what proof exists that the earth is not 6,000 years old. I am astonished you are even asking that question. The scientific community can date things like rocks and such… read this http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
Your “gap theory” is specious. Is that in the Bible?
if you require further proof please let me know and I’ll be happy to provide you with more.
Seth, you need to back away from the loopy propaganda school for your facts.
It is impossible to take the amount of H2O on this planet and cover all the land. IMPOSSIBLE. Not even close. Look it up.
I don’t know why you think facts like that are “iffy” but I suspect it is the right-wing theology that says if we repeat things enough they become true.
Janine – The proof that rocks are old by various dating methods have been shown that these dating methods are really only accurate up to 5,000 years. Also dating methods of rock layers is often done by circular reasoning. The idea says that Rock Layer A is 1 mil years because the rock in that layers is 1 mil years. And we know the rock in that layer is 1 mil years because the layer is 1 mil years. You can’t base one on the other. Also what about the many areas around the earth that organisms that were not supposed to only be 2 mil years old are found in rocks that are dated to 50 mil years. Also where is the evidence that evolution existed or exists. Are we really the highest form of being that evolution can come up with and evolution has stopped. Where is the middle ground between species.
If you still hold to the earth being 4.5 billion years old, study the Gap theory. It will begin to explain why things may seem older than what traditional Biblical History teaches.
Seth, You are drawing conclusions that just don’t work. I didn’t say that God doesn’t exist and the world is an accident. But the story that was made up 1000′s of years ago which today sounds like a children’s story to me (made for simple minds) is full of holes if you look at real science.
The story is simple. You are correct. It is simple because it’s not about what I can do, but what is given to me. It’s simple because we are simple people. But what you find out if you follow the simple story is that there is so much more than the simple story. You will find that the magnitude of your decision will lead you to a deeper understanding of who God is and what He does. The Bible does follow science. Are there things called Miracles that cannot be explained by science? Yes. Are there things today that happen that cannot be explained by science? Absolutely. You have to accept it by faith, but faith in what, you have to choose.
Creationists are like tourists who take a helicopter to the top of a mountain, then tell the climbers, “Nyah, Nyah! We got here first!”
If we attributed everything we do not currently understand to miracles to be accepted by faith, we’d still be riding horses and exorcising demons from the sick. I cite Clarke’s laws of prediction (particularly the third).
I have been commanded to tell, not to save. Believe what you will and live how you will. I must follow the one who saved me and believe through evidence in my own life that no man can refute that Jesus Christ is real and alive today. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Good afternoon, good evening and good night.
Philippians 2:
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
will do. I will continue the discussion, however my responses may be delayed. I really should be working more at work today than I have. I will take some break time to make responses and time after I get home.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible than any other religion. You can ask them any Bible question and they can show you right in the Bible where the answer is. Next time they come to your door, have fun and ask questions. I’ve even seen JW children defend their faith. The JW’s also know a lot about other religions, not just their own. It’s because they learn how to study and how to teach and they take their religion seriously. They have to … because they’re taking their faith to the streets. Pretty awesome if you ask me. Has anyone ever had a Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Methodist, etc. randomly come to your door to talk about God?
The methods used to determine the age of the earth were not circular. They were determined by using Radiometric dating. I won’t get into the finer details but all objects on earth have some amount of Carbon-14. This carbon decays over time. By factoring in the rate of decay they can determine the age of the object. By using this method along with other methods they have determined the age of the earth to be about 4 billion years old. You seem to have cherry picked and pointed out single method yet flawed method which was not even used in determining the age of the earth.
As for evolution, yes you are right it is only a theory. But there is a lot of evidence pointing to the existence of evolution.
And keep in mind that there is a lot more evidence of evolution than just that one, such as fossil evidence of our ancestors, difference.
A simple internet search of “evidence of evolution” will bring up many such examples.
As for studying the “Gap Theory”. Well its my turn to use your excuse for denying evolution back onto you. Gap theory is only a theory. Why should Gap theory be so much superior to simply believing that the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years when it has much less evidence supporting it?
Peter – You are correct, it is a theory and there is “evidence of creation” all around you. Documented evidence of things that by any stretch of the imagination could not have happened by chance. However, secular scientist refuse to address these things because they know it will affect their overall teachings of Evolution as scientific fact.
And while I’m on the subject of Evolution theory, should we not teach our students that Evolution is a THEORY and not FACT and present the alternative theory to students as well. This is what is taking place in the private school sector. Why can’t we do it in the public school sector. (I know I taught science in the private school sector for 5 years. Now I only corrupt the mind of children in they way they handle their money and work on computers – Both of which I have a degree for, and for science if anyone was wondering. A science degree I got a public university.)
Your theory that Carbon 14 dating is accurate is flawed by the admission of those who are trying to prove their own theory. They admit that carbon dating is really only accurate for about 100,000 years and after that point there is so little carbon 14 left in the organism they cannot date it. They then stamp a date on an object by know what type of organism they are dating. In the times they have dated organisms blindly, they have determined many of these organism that were supposed to be 1.5 million years old to be only 10k-15k years old. Then when they find out what the organism was they were dating they start making excuses for why the dating method was incorrect.
Also in order to hold C14 dating to such a high esteem, one would have to assume that C14 has been constant over all the years that organism has been dead. This cannot be quantified, therefore the theory of C14 dating accuracy is flawed.
Yes the Gap Theory is a Theory. That is why it is called the Gap Theory and not Gap Fact. It is a theory that is based on the idea that we are not the first earth that has been here and that is the reason for many things appearing older than the held to 6k-15k age of the earth. It was there for reading and not to present as fact. This board has present things for me to read, so I was presenting one thing for others to read. In order to have a valuable dialog, one must understand the position of the opposition and not just yell down at them.
I must go now and Conservatively corrupt the minds of High School seniors on how to responsibly manage their money.
I will address the idea of human evolution based off of different skeletal structures of humans later. There is so much to be said. Just think on this. There are are different breeds of dogs, cats, birds, fish, and monkeys, but those different breeds don’t mean that a fish, became a bird became a cat, became a dog, became a monkey, became a human. Just as there are different breeds of animals there are different breeds of humans with different characteristics.
Scientific theory is different from a theory as you understand it. In science, a theory is a concept based on empirical data which explains a set of phenomena testable through experiment.
The Theory of Gravity and the Theory of Relativity are two examples of scientific theories as are the Theory of Quantam Mechanics and Theory of Plate Tectonics.
Scientific theories are subject to peer review. Creationist ‘theories’ are not. There is no comparison regardless of what Answers in Genesis claims.
Sorry Mario, you may ban me from commenting after this, but you are wrong. Your idea that the Theory of Evolution is held in the same standard at the Theory of Gravity, Relativity, Mechanics, or Plate Tectonics is a poor attempt to prove your own idea that there can be no such thing as an Intelligent Designer (ID). The four you you have mentioned are all Observable, Measurable and Quantifiable, the three element required to be considered a valid scientific fact. Evolution does not meet these three requirement and is therefore qualified as a scientific theory that is not based on irrefutable facts but rather a religious belief structure that there can be no God.
The accusation that Creationist Theories are not subject to a peer review is you own of opinion of what a valid peer review should be. The theory is reviewed, and time after time evidence is produced to support the idea of Creation (ID). Just because the review is done by those that do not completely support the politically accepted theory of Evolution does not mean that the peer review is invalid.
I am not stating that it is a theory as “I understand it”. I am stating that it is a theory by Definition. Unless of course your rewrite the science books and say that it’s fact even though it doesn’t meet the predetermined requirements, which seems to be done in our schools and society as a whole. Even you yourself says it has to be testable by experimentation. Name the experiment that has produced an evolutionary change from one species of organism to another. You can’t because it has not happened. You can produce genetic mutations, cross breeding and natural selection, but none of these changed species only breeds or physical characteristic. You can produce “evidence” of different breeds of humans or apes, but you can’t produce anything that shows an evolutionary change form one species to another. Even the skeletal system “Lucy” on which evolutionist hang their hats is only a partial skeletal system on which scientist have built an entire body with hair and features to match their own bias of what they think the evolutionary link should look like. Just because some guys at the Discover Channel(TM) – which I personally like watching – can produce a computer generated moving model of what they think she should look like does not make it fact.
If your own idea is to ignore the laws of science to accept the idea of pure chance creating what is around you, that is your choice, your belief and your religion. You have free will to accept or deny the Biblical account of Creation, but to stand and say that Evolution is not really a theory but a fact is ludicrous and a falsification of true scientific research and understanding.
Like I said, you may ban me from speaking on your blog, that is your choice, and that is fine. But I would respectfully request you approve this one last entry into the discussion without any changes.
Seth – You still not have addressed the issue of the mountains of evidence that suggest evolution is true. Did you watch the video regarding the laryngeal nerve? If God is real, then why did he design it so that the laryngeal nerve loops all the way down to the heart, around an artery, and then back up to the throat, instead of straight from the brain to the throat? Is God stupid?
Also I should point out that Evolution is only a theory because the only way of definitively proving it would be to go back in time and observe it as it happens.
And what is this so called documented evidence of creation? Your arguement is saying that just because its unimaginable its not possible? It would have been impossible for early Greek philosophers to come up with the
When it comes to radiometric dating, Carbon-14 is not the only element available to conduct tests with. Uranium/lead can also be measured and these are able to be used to measure age of objects far older than 10,000 years. I should also point out that even 10,000 years is older than the biblical age of the earth.
The Gap theory you point out is very weak. You would believe a theory that was made up in order to support biblical claims of the age of the earth, rather than a theory which is supported by very observable scientific claims? Gap theory is not a traditional theory as Mario above me has stated.
Seth, do me a favor. Stop referring to me banning you from this site for expressing your beliefs in the respectful manner you have shown. I have never suggested I would ban you and have no intention of doing so. OK?
That said, your comment above is filled with so many inaccuracies, I don’t know how to begin. With all due respect, you have no understanding of the scientific method whatsoever and your understanding of evolution is completely flawed. This might help.
Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences.
I could cite you a hundred examples of how evolution has been both observed and tested but I’ll give you just one. Fruit flies.
Final point. Your understanding of Intelligent Design is also flawed as is ID itself which has been shown to be a weak attempt at making Creationism appear scientific. But even so, ID allows for microevolution. It is macroevolution (creation of new species) which ID does not accept.
Anyway, as I’ve mentioned before, the Theory of Evolution does not speak of the existence of God.
The problem with this line of discourse is that Seth is starting with a belief (creation according to the Bible) and mangling the science to fit.
How about dropping the bias and observing the natural world, then drawing conclusions based on logic? Scientists would never start with the idea that the Earth was created in 6 days 6-15k years ago and then try to figure out how their observations jibe with the original bias of that story.
Believe what you feel comfortable with, but don’t mangle science and scientific method in an effort to rationalize your beliefs.
Seth, you are showing your true colors if you are accusing Mario of either banning people for simply disagreeing or editing contributed comments (as where you said, “But I would respectfully request you approve this one last entry into the discussion without any changes.”) Are you one of these people walking around with a persecuted Christian complex? Or is it projection – banning or editing others being the sort of thing you would do if you were in Mario’s place?
My last comment. Then I need to do the work I get paid to do. I am not worried about ridicule or running around with a complex (oh he’s denying it, therefore he really is, hmmmm). I have studied science for many years, from my teenage years to now, and I have looked at the scientific evidence and have not found where it could all happen by chance. It takes more faith to believe it happened by pure chance than by ID. The nerve you speak of has been addressed and has been debated. Those who believe in ID have posed a reason why the nerve is designed the way it is, but because it “helps support” evolution, that theory is not taken into consideration. I get frustrated when things that are unknown have a theory developed about them and then hold the theory as fact because the theory fits into the idea that Evolution is scientific fact. It’s not fact, plain and simple. The same as Creation is not fact. They both take that wonderful thing called FAITH. (but faith in what? That’s the biggest question.)
You insist that I don’t look through it from a religious bias. I ask you to do the same. When one goes in to prove evolution, there has often been scientific mangling to fit a preconceived idea. The complexity of nature around you screams the existence of an intelligent designer and not pure chance.
As far as the comment to not edit the comment or censure what was said come from a history of discussing matters with those who do not hold beliefs the same as I and having comments changed, delete or edited. Since I do not know Mario and do not know his personal bias or actions, I was only requesting that everything is posted. He has not changed or refused any post, but since the last post was directed to him, I did not know if he would find it as an attack or if he would be open to allowing it to go through. So no it was not a fear of being silenced by the masses, but rather a long history of being shutout for my beliefs.
Yes, the Gap Theory is a far fetched theory that I find interesting. It is not held by tradition by anyone in the mainstream Christian community.
Another problem with you assumption that “atheists tend to grow into their beliefs after reflection and study” is that you have no evidence to back this up. The problem here is that this study doesn’t claim that atheists research before choosing their belief sets. You also have the problem of actual research showing that nearly half of all children raised in atheist homes go on to become theists as adults. So apparently, when atheist children question and research their own belief system they tend to leave it behind in favor of, usually evangelical christian, beliefs. So in that vein you could suggest that atheists don’t question their belief systems and when they do they abandon atheism.
Confirmed atheist here. Took the quiz earlier today and got 14 out of 15 correct. Felt good in that the one that I missed was the one that MOST people missed, the one with only 11% of respondents getting correct. I did feel kind of good in that I was teetering between the correct answer and the one that seemed obvious (at least to me) which I took…
I took the quiz, and it only registered three correct, but that’s because I couldn’t get a decent connection, so whenever I clicked “Next” I got a timeout and those responses registered as “not answered”. However, I did get all fifteen correctly, although that last one (the 11 percenter) was part guess. I knew Billy Graham was definitely not in the running, making the odds 50-50.
I found this out by accident. I fall into the category of one who believes in God but doesn’t subscribe to organized religion. I have always been stunned by the way my Catholic & Protestant friends seem to know very little about their religion.
The biggest one to me is the Bible itself. Some of the most devout followers of (fill in religion as needed) have no idea what the friggin book has in it. They certainly seem to have no idea where the book comes from or who did the editing. “It is the word of God.” Right.
It would help if they were better educated about what they believe.
One of the most notable examples I ever ran across was a coworker who went on a rant one day over “Xmas”. After listening to him for a bit, I asked him if he knew where that ‘X’ came from, and he came back with it being an attempt to secularize Christmas. I wrote this down and showed it to him: “???????” and explained how the early Christians used the initial of that Greek word for Christ as an identifying sign. I then said, to no-one (and everyone) in particular that I was constantly amazed at how widespread people’s lack of understanding in their own faith was.
I took the test and got the question wrong about what Which of the following best described the Catholic teaching about the bread and wine used for Communion… been a long time since that was explained to me…
I think what people know about their religion is what they are told by their priest/pastor/swami, etc… I don’t think a lot of ppl do independent research into their belief system or books that comprise their belief system
I was raised a conservative Christian and slowly evolved into an athiest. Much like the OP suggested with study and reflection, I answered 12 correct.
Thanks Janine for summarizing the post.
Truthfully to me this whole post is crap. You imply that most people are born into to a religion, and just mindlessly follow that religion without question, but how much worse is it for atheists today. With the American school system nowadays the word “God” is almost forbidden to say in any public school. Kids are being force fed evolution none stop from the day they start school. Some of them are never even taught basic principles about different religions around the world. I know 16 year old kids who don’t even know what the bible is. So if you ask me it’s not the Religious kids who are mindlessly following its the atheists. At least most religious kids know the evolution theory, and have chosen to at least deny that and follow their own religion.
WASP who got 14 out of 15, and the one I missed was a political question not really a religious one. I guess I am the exception to the norm
Got 15 / 15, I was somewhat surprised. I did guess on the last one, but knew it wasn’t XXXX, so I had a 50/50 on that question.
I was raised in a Methodist household. Though I never really got much into it, I was dragged to services from time to time and enjoyed learning about other religions.
I vividly remember studying the bible as a work of literature in public high school.
My kids know what the Bible is, what the Koran is, and what the Torah is, as well as at least bits and pieces of various religions from the ancient Greeks to religions of today. One is 18, one is 11. Perhaps the kids you know who don’t know these things were “educated” in Texas public schools?
Evangelical Christian here – I got all 15 questions right. I even have the same religious beliefs that I was raised with!!!
I would speculate that the poor results by “religious” folks in the Pew quiz are caused by those who claim to have a religion because they have some vague association with a particular denomination (e.g. they always were told by their parents that they were a part of a particular denomination such as Catholic, Methodist or Baptist, etc. so they grow up saying “I am [X]” without even thinking about it). However, in reality they do not fully implement the teachings of those groups into their life in any substantial way. For example, I know from experience that if you ask the average white American “what is your religion?” Many will respond with the denomination of whatever church they went to when they were a kid. Ask them when the last time they went was and they’ll generally say that it was quite a while ago.
I teach an adult Sunday School class at a Southern Baptist Church and I know for a fact that most of my students would have scored fairly well on this quiz. (I especially hope that they would know that Jonathan Edwards was associated with the First Great Awakening!).
It’s not the genuinely religious folks that are uninformed, but those who claim to have a religion that consists only in some involuntary past experience.
@bobbylee: I’m not “implying” that “most people are born into a religion and just mindlessly follow that religion without question.” I’m SAYING it is so.
As for schoolchildren being “force fed” evolution, they’re also being force fed nonsense like arithmetic and history and geography and chemistry and physics. It’s a real shame, isn’t it? It would be much better to teach them about talking snakes and burning bushes, I would think.
Southern Baptist here. Got 14 out of 15. Missed the same one only 11% of people get. Knew the ones on Islam and Buddhism through my muslim and buddhist friends.
They are right. People born into it just don’t bother to question or learn the tenets of their faith. I have seen it. I chose to get closer to my faith and there is definitely allot to learn. Crazy thing is none of it is difficult so there is no reason not to learn it if you claim to be of the faith.
Confirmed Catholic here (converted from Baptist after reading a LOT of early Christian history). I’m also a confirmed mathematician, computer scientist, philosophy and history buff. I answered 15/15 correctly.
@mario piperni
See this is why i hate America. They are so closed minded about every little thing. You say Religious people are mindlessly following their parents, and you get 10 people agreeing with how right you are. However, If I even mention that atheist are doing the exact same thing, then suddenly I’m a moron, and instead of trying to argue against me with real facts, you just make fun of my religion. We look back at a time when Africans were being sold as slaves, and think how stupid were we for being so racist. But your doing the exact same thing now.
Atheist always act like they know everything, but their theory is being changed almost none stop and every time it does the new theory is instantly the “truth”. Well my truth has been around for five thousand years. Lets just wait and see what the evolutionist’s theory looks like in another five thousand years. I wonder if it will even exist.
wow bobbylee…i am a religious person and understand your feelings about people ripping on religious people as being stupid or simple or sheep or whatever…but that comment went way too far. to compare yourself to slaves is just insane. frankly it is that kind of narrow mindedness that people are talking about. religion is a choice. slavery, by definition, is not. be proud of being a christian. dont let the naysayers bring you down. but dont try to be a martyr. and dont offend people who know more about suffering and bigotry and racism than you could ever possibly understand.
@bobbylee:
1. I said MOST religious people are mindlessly following. I also wrote this in the original post.
2. I did not refer to you as a moron nor do I believe you to be a moron.
3. I was not making fun of your religion. I don’t even know what your religion is. I was being sarcastic though about your comment regarding evolution being force fed to schoolchildren.
4. Evolutionary theory is not “being changed almost non-stop”. The mechanics of how the evolutionary process works are debated and evolving within the scientific community but the essence of evolution is pure scientific fact. It’s real and while your “truth” might have been around for 5 thousand years, evolution has been around for 3.5 billion years. We’ve got you beat. Sorry.
Mario. I totally agree with evolution and I am a Christian. AMAZING! I have never understood the counter argument. Furthermore, I can see no evidence that evolution kills religion. It may kill some sects, but not religion. God exists. He understands physics much better than we do. He uses natural laws to govern his universe. Why is that so hard for Christian people to consider?
I am a white southern Christian male and am anti-sin (homosexuality is sin btw).
My sin has been paid for by Jesus Christ.
Oh yeah, and I just scored 15 out of 15 for 100%. And I aint even all that smart… But all level of intellects can understand that they are sinners and need salvation before a just God. Jesus provides just that: SALVATION. Go look up the meaning of that word. Never saw a question like that on the quiz.
Here are 2 questions:
Who walked between the split animals during the making of a covenant in the old testement?
Who did not walk between the animals?
Hey man I really am sorry. After reading David’s comment I realised I was being the christian that I hate so much. I was being the hypnacryte who says that they love everybody, but doesn’t show it in their actions. I was the reason that so many people turn away from Christianity, and i really hate that. I wish I could go back and just delete my comments man, but i cant now. I just want to say I am sorry man. I respect evolution. In fact I think that evolution and creationism could work together very nicely. Sometimes I just get really caught up in these stupid arguments.
haha…testement
And it should be noted that evolution does not speak of God’s existence one way or another. Evolution got cracking once life was already in place.
Dude. 13/15. Its not perfect but I think it was pretty good for a non-scholar. I loved how there was a question about Mormons.
Scored 15/15 and left puzzled – these are relatively basic elements of religion. Is it because I am not American and was not born and raised in the U.S.A. or is it because I am an atheist that I am simply better informed?
Thanks Mario for the Evolution note. I think both sides misunderstand that.
I am an idiot. I got an 87, though I am not really religious, and I still did better than average. I got the question on the Jewish Sabbath wrong, and then, not reading the question through got the one wrong of is it permissible to read the Bible as historic text in class.
“Scored 15/15 and left puzzled – these are relatively basic elements of religion. Is it because I am not American and was not born and raised in the U.S.A. or is it because I am an atheist that I am simply better informed?”
Both.
DonnyBrook- are you saying that Americans are stupid? Cause we will bomb you!
I’m a Christian, and got 13 of the 15 right (the Bible permitted as literature in schools and the nirvana one).
I would just like to warn others that #6 is kind of a trick question. Transubstantiation isn’t confined solely to Catholicism, and not all Catholics believe that it happens. However, great quiz – if you say you adhere to a religion, you should know more about it than the average layman. And if you proclaim it to be the right one – and the only right one – you should have extensive knowledge of other religions, as well, in order to make that claim.
Baptist here, and I got 15 out of 15. I think more because I went to a Christian school and was taught most of this, than just because of my religion.
Also, I think it’s very common for a religious person to only know about their own religion, and not to bother learning about the others. Whereas, I can see people outside of any religion studying them all, so I find the results unsurprising.
For those who are interested, the complete telephone poll on which the Pew study is based can be found at http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Belief_and_Practices/religious-knowledge-questionnaire.pdf. This includes all the questions that were not on the online version and the instructions to the poll takers.
I don’t know if my own religious education is anything to go by (it was Catholic), but in involved daily mass, lots of memorizing catechism (and parroting the answers), and a definite discouragement of asking real questions (including corporal punishment for expressing any agreement with evolution). The indoctrination problem arises from people who remain in the denomination or religion in which they are raised. I know the Catholic Church (both the institution and the parish) that I grew up with didn’t want the rank and file to know too much about theology or the finer points of doctrine. These were best left to the heirarchy or the elders. Even our study of the bible was not of the text itself; it was paraphrased by our teachers. It was only after leaving the church that I felt free to pursue more critical and wide-ranging studies. I suspect this is similar for anyone who leaves or changes a church; a certain amount of study is required to adapt to the new spiritual environment.
By the way, the issues of use of the bible in public schools is nothing new. There were bible riots in Philadelphia in the 1840s, and in Edgerton, Wisconsin, the first major lawsuit was brought about to limit the use of the book. It started in 1886, and had its origins in the fact that Catholic parents did not want their kids forced to study the King James version (Catholics preferred the Douay).
Given the fact that so many religious conservatives distrust the government and hate public education altogether, I am constantly amazed that they support the notion of “putting prayer back in the schools” thereby letting government-employed teachers leading their children in prayers and providing their religious education.
I find it definitely true atheist hold more factual knowledge on religion… Why do you think they are atheist in the first place?
Hey, FOUND -
Got news for ya. God made homos too.
Are you questioning his work?
Sounds like a sin…
Why doesn’t anyone track Hindu’s in this study?
i took the quiz and im methodist.. I got 14 out of 15.. i guess when u want to know about the thing around u, u read and get knowledge to understand why are things the way they are..
I got 15/15, and guessed only one one. Not bad for an agnostic, eh? Anyway, Mario hit everything on the head. No one should be offended by what he has written on this subject, because it’s been proven true by this poll.
About evolution, Mario is right. It doesn’t speak one way or another about the existence of God, but I do have to add that it does speak against religious dogma and superstition. It used to be enforced that the Bible and religious beliefs associated with it or based off of it were the absolute final word. The irrefutable word of God himself. When these kinds of misconceptions were proven false, death and condemnation usually ensued, or these groups would (and still do in most cases) stubbornly resist the spreading of the true facts, or just ignorantly deny it when it came out.
I believe that once a group claiming that a statement is against the word of God, and the statement is proven true, then everyone should at least assume that that group or belief system needs re-evaluating. If in the end you are still religious, then fine. But blindly following despite facts is wrong. Evolution used to be blasphemous concept, going against the Biblical interpretation of our Genesis, but now science supports it. The fact that religious people used to condemn others who acknowledge evolution over the strictest literal version of Genesis, but now are changing (or adapting) their position on it, when it used to be the non-debatable word of God, speaks volumes to me. Then again, that’s probably why I’m an agnostic. But that’s probably why anyone who becomes an agnostic is worthy of the classification.
Yeah, i got 15 out of 15,and im “spiritual” and my religion has nothing to do with my score. I took a comparative religion course in college that showcased all major religions of the world and compared them. A large percentage of the people in the class were atheist who enjoyed trying to mock ALL the religions, not just Christianity, so yay for atheists not singling a single religion out. I noticed that although the people who identified themselves as theists may not be as open to other religions ideas, they were at least respectful; the atheists really did not hold back a punch and went out of there way to mock people beliefs. Finally, the teacher tore them a new one after he explained that atheists are no different than Christians or Buddhists, they all have their own beliefs and if someones differs, they will be hostile in order to reinforce their beliefs.
Survey is good but in itself is ignorant. Catholic is not a religion and so is Muslim. Catholic is a sect of Christianity. Muslim is a practitioner of Islam. There are others I might missed. Got 14 btw. Didn’t know the last question about the First Great Awakening. I guess it wasn’t great at all since never heard about it.
Survery definitely shows how ignorant majority are of other religions which definitely contributes to racism, bigotry, hyprocrisy and exteremism.
The difference is that an atheist has the ability to show facts for their beliefs rather than blind faith.
So, if erap’s never heard of something, it’s not important. If he’d never heard of Hans Oerstad, would he say he wasn’t important despite his contributions to the western world?
As to whether Catholicism is a religion or a denomination is open to debate, much the same as linguists debate whether two variations are separate languages or dialects. The point being that many Christian denominations deny the validity of other Christian sects. In my Catholic school, we were told, in no uncertain terms, that we were not Christians, we were CATHOLICS, and all the Protestants (except maybe the Episcopalians) were going to hell.
As for the Muslim/Islam thing, it’s just a matter of metonymy (you’ll probably have to search for that).
15/15. High Score. Protestant Christan for 19 years. Born into the religion 30 years ago. Accepted it for myself 19 years ago. Have had my questions but through searching have found evidence for my beliefs.
Also I have studied other religions and have determined one thing over and over again. If I’m right then everyone else who doesn’t believe is damned to eternal punishment in a literal hell. If I’m wrong, then I’ve lived a good life and by 99% of other religions I either get some sort of paradise or I just cease to exist. I win which ever way is true. So I put my belief in what is real to me and what will not harm me in end.
I do believe there is evidence to support the religion of Christianity and if one studies it with an open mind, they would be able to come to the same conclusion.
BTW Catholicism is a religion separate from Christianity. They hold to different foundational beliefs and have a different view of eternity, the role of man, and the purpose of Jesus Christ. Christianity broke form the Catholic Church thanks to the work of Martin Luther. Mormonism is a break from the Christian religion by a boy who grew up in the church but believed that a loving God could not condemn a person to Hell and formed a religion around his personal beliefs and formed a works based salvation.
Atheist have come to their beliefs for the most part from the lack of convictions of those around them and also because the idea that there is something or someone stronger than you is not cool with them. Also, to admit there is a God would require that you admit you can’t do it on your own and you are not ultimately in control of your own life. There is an element of responsibility that people are responsible for their own actions.
Unless Seth, you should have chosen Islam rather than being a Protestant.
However, Islam is a religion that is based off of works and how good I can be to get me into Heaven. Works is a horrible way to make it there. There is nothing that I can do that is good enough to receive any type of Heaven. If I rely on my works, what makes my works any better or worse than anyone else’s. Christianity unlike every other religion is not based on how good I can be, but rather my acceptance that I can’t do it on my own and I must rely on a savior Jesus Christ to absolve me of the wrongs that I have done. If I rely on my own good merit, I will continually come up short. Islam is based in rules and regulations that trap the individual into a constant battle of trying to achieve perfection.
While many would say that Christianity is a religions of DO NOT’s, it’s rather a religion of discipleship. The do not’s are simply a guidance and a path to the DO’s and GET TO’s. If you study the Do Not’s of the Bible you will find that most of them if done will lead to suffering and hardship. So the Do Not’s actually are there for the benefit of the disciple who is striving to be more like the leader Jesus Christ.
What does it matter who knows what if you (the author) do not believe in the what. Therefore you thinly veiled insults mean jack squat.
Seth, you made me spit water out of my nose I was laughing so hard.
Christianity and the like may have their do’s and do not’s but they also have a built in get out of jail free card. You can do or act however you want — as long as you repent, confess your sins, you are forgiven and granted an entrance into heaven. So it really doesn’t matter how you conduct yourself in your daily life, there is the confess/redemption scape. Unlike some other religions or life disciplines where how you live your life dictates whether or not you achieve heaven, nirvana etc…
I would love to know what number is bigger: The number of people who change religions, or the number who leave religion all together.
Janine, You like most people have a false understanding of what Christianity is. Most people that claim Christianity only do so because they go to church on Christmas or Easter or they know what the Bible is. A true follower of Jesus Christ will not conduct themselves in manner that is separate from the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Bible speaks clearly about what you have so plainly accused Christianity of being. Nothing more than words and no actions. Christ warns those who only speak the name and do not practice the teachings.
These will be paraphrased. For the full verse go look it up.
Romans 6:1-2 – Should we continue to sin so grace can abound. No. We have died to our sins and can no longer live in them.
Matthew 7:23-24 – Many will say they did great things in the Name of Christ, but he will tell them to go away because they never followed him (only in words but not in actions)
James 2:19 – Just because you believe there is a God does not make you a Christian. The demons believe in God and shutter, but they still burn.
A person who repents but continues to live in their sin and practice their sins because “all they have to do is ask and it’s forgiven” are not followers of Jesus Christ. They will suffer the wrath of a just God.
You’re right when you say “a built in get out of jail free card.” It is a free gift that you don’t have to do anything for. But if you truly understand that the gift you have received has released you from Hell, then you will devote your life to the one who made that possible. The lack of devotion signifies a lack of understanding. There are many people that go to church for the sake of going to church but they will never enter the Kingdom of God. And yes, they do a disservice to the Name of Christ. I apologize for every person that you have met who claims the name of Christ but never lives it out in their life.
@Seth, I think Janine was describing how many people act, not what any given sect’s doctrine is. I have met many people who professed any of several varieties of Christianity which are based on faith over works who are of the opinion that a deathbed proclamation of belief is enough to make up for any wrongs they may have done. An historical example: Emperor Flavius Constantine, who declared tolerance for Christianity during his reign, was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. He had a number of dark deeds in his past – murders of rivals to the throne, political assasinations and the like – so he asked the Pagan priests if he would be called to account for his misdeeds in the afterlife; they assured him he would. The Christian priests, however, assured him that baptism would give him a clean slate, and that convinced him to personally accept Christianity (by modern standards, however, he was baptized a heretic which negated his intention).
You can say “A person who repents but continues to live in their sin and practice their sins because ‘all they have to do is ask and it’s forgiven’ are not followers of Jesus Christ.” until you’re blue in the face, but that’s not important – you don’t have the standing to decide who can or cannot be called a Christian. What matters is how they believe and how they act, and whether or not there’s some minister somewhere enabling them like some living Chick tract.
@Rachel – who is the intended recipient of your comment?
Finally: Check this out: http://twitpic.com/2mc4sd/full
Blair – Your are correct when you say that that I cannot say who is and isn’t saved. The Bible tells me “judge not lest ye be judged”. The most misquoted verse in the Bible (also the most quoted). I cannot tell the heart of a person and if their repentance was genuine or if it was just “fire insurance” (a popular phrase in the Christian community). However, the Bible also goes on to say that “by their fruits you will know them.” If you are a true follower and have had a true conversion experience then you will live like it. If you call yourself loving and never love you are a liar. If you say you are a Christian but don’t live by the standards, then you are only fooling yourself.
As far as death bed confessions, I can’t know the heart of a man, but the peace I have is that I don’t have to. Christianity is the only religion that does not require works for salvation (not even baptism), in James we read that “our works are as filthy rags. Are some death bed conversion genuine? Yes. Jesus even had one death bed confession/conversion in His ministry on earth. While he hung on the cross in Luke 23:43 He spoke to the thief hanging on the cross next to Him and said “Sure I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” This happened because in the verses preceding this one, the thief confessed his sins and belief in Jesus Christ as savior. He quickly died after his conversion and did no works to receive the gift. He was saved and did go on to heaven that day.
It doesn’t take a priest, minister, or water to save a man, woman or child. It only takes a genuine belief in Jesus Christ as Savior AND Lord.
Seth, I love it. You came right out and explained how you are hedging your bets by being a Protestant Christian. THAT is really honest.
The rest of the rationalizing about faith is weak. You don’t know the truth any more that the dude in Africa right this minute praying to a special tree. Sorry if that sounds rude. It is just that everybody says what you say about their own beliefs.
There is no proof that Jesus even existed. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t, it just means there is no proof.
There is, however proof that the Earth is NOT 6,000 years old.
There is proof that the Earth could not have been covered with water.
There is no proof that anyone has ever resurrected from the dead.
Need I go on. Believe what you like. But don’t try to PROVE that your interpretation of the Bible is right, or that I have to accept Jesus as my personal savior. You can’t prove any of it. It is all the same.
But kudos for admitting you are hedging your religious bets just to be safe. I am pretty sure that Jesus reads Mario’s blog. I hope he doesn’t take it the wrong way and think you are insincere.
Thanks, OCL. I was getting tires of this. All this blather about faith alone trumping good works just gives people an excuse to call themselves pious Christians while dumping their fellow man into the gutter.
Liberal – What proof do you have the earth is not 6,000 years old (PC say it could be between 6-15,000 years, not just 6,000). Personally I am one of the weird ones who believe in a Gap Theory of earth age (look it up, too long to explain). You don’t have evidence, only blind faith as you call it. Evolution is a theory as is Creationism. There is no scientific proof that Evolution is correct. By definition, a fact must be observable, measurable and repeatable. The only one of those that may be checked off will be measurable, although this is a stretch too. And true creation doesn’t meet the qualifications to be fact. They are both theories that are held to be by faith. There is evidence to support that which if found in the Bible. There are artifacts and other writings that have the information found in the Bible. There is evidence of a man walking the earth named Jesus Christ who had a large following and did things that were not explainable by traditional reasoning. By saying there is no evidence, then there is misinformation.
Show me the proof that the earth was not covered in water and I will show you the proof it was. Show me the proof that the Bible is not historically accurate, and I will show you the proof that it is.
To believe in the idea that this entire universe only happened by chance takes much more faith than believing that it was done by intelligent design. Evolution by mutation is bogus because mutations are historically destructive to the organism not constructive. Spontaneous generation takes much more faith than Intelligent Design. Was Darwin wrong with natural selection. Not totally. The stronger member of the species will survive and produce strong offspring, but they will not produce different species. Maybe different breeds will begin to emerge, but not different species all together. There is no evidence. The evidence presented is based off of the finding of one tooth or one skeleton that they have less than 40% of.
From you saying “hedging my bet,” well maybe. It was a point that I had to come to after seeking for what was missing. After studying other religions and beliefs. I found that Christianity was the only one that made sense when you considered it only for the ramifications of the afterlife. Since then I have grown in my understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ and have moved past the point of just hedging my bet. But for those that are still wondering what to follow, this was what originally moved me to say the others didn’t make sense.
Last, Jesus is reading every word I type and hears every word I speak. One day I will give an account for those words. I am not ashamed for anything I have said here. I know as I am typing or speaking I am doing it in front of the creator of the universe. I can tell my story and not have to leave out parts because I am ashamed. So no I don’t think my Savior and Lord will think I am insecure. Do I deal with doubts? Sure. We all do. But my Father in Heaven continually reveals himself to me to give me confidence in my convictions.
@Seth, I know your question was addressed to @Liberal re what proof exists that the earth is not 6,000 years old. I am astonished you are even asking that question. The scientific community can date things like rocks and such… read this http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
Your “gap theory” is specious. Is that in the Bible?
if you require further proof please let me know and I’ll be happy to provide you with more.
evolution is also a proven science, btw
Seth, you need to back away from the loopy propaganda school for your facts.
It is impossible to take the amount of H2O on this planet and cover all the land. IMPOSSIBLE. Not even close. Look it up.
I don’t know why you think facts like that are “iffy” but I suspect it is the right-wing theology that says if we repeat things enough they become true.
Janine – The proof that rocks are old by various dating methods have been shown that these dating methods are really only accurate up to 5,000 years. Also dating methods of rock layers is often done by circular reasoning. The idea says that Rock Layer A is 1 mil years because the rock in that layers is 1 mil years. And we know the rock in that layer is 1 mil years because the layer is 1 mil years. You can’t base one on the other. Also what about the many areas around the earth that organisms that were not supposed to only be 2 mil years old are found in rocks that are dated to 50 mil years. Also where is the evidence that evolution existed or exists. Are we really the highest form of being that evolution can come up with and evolution has stopped. Where is the middle ground between species.
If you still hold to the earth being 4.5 billion years old, study the Gap theory. It will begin to explain why things may seem older than what traditional Biblical History teaches.
If you do something wrong over and over, it doesn’t become true. But if you do it right the first time you won’t have to do it over and over.
Seth, You are drawing conclusions that just don’t work. I didn’t say that God doesn’t exist and the world is an accident. But the story that was made up 1000′s of years ago which today sounds like a children’s story to me (made for simple minds) is full of holes if you look at real science.
The story is simple. You are correct. It is simple because it’s not about what I can do, but what is given to me. It’s simple because we are simple people. But what you find out if you follow the simple story is that there is so much more than the simple story. You will find that the magnitude of your decision will lead you to a deeper understanding of who God is and what He does. The Bible does follow science. Are there things called Miracles that cannot be explained by science? Yes. Are there things today that happen that cannot be explained by science? Absolutely. You have to accept it by faith, but faith in what, you have to choose.
Creationists are like tourists who take a helicopter to the top of a mountain, then tell the climbers, “Nyah, Nyah! We got here first!”
If we attributed everything we do not currently understand to miracles to be accepted by faith, we’d still be riding horses and exorcising demons from the sick. I cite Clarke’s laws of prediction (particularly the third).
I have been commanded to tell, not to save. Believe what you will and live how you will. I must follow the one who saved me and believe through evidence in my own life that no man can refute that Jesus Christ is real and alive today. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Good afternoon, good evening and good night.
Philippians 2:
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Seth – Sorry, I am not one to question your faith. That is your choice and I am all about choice.
But where do you get more water than the planet even has? And where all the extra water now?
Liberal – send me your e-mail and I will gladly continue this discussion with you. mine is skuzzpuppe@gmail.com
Darn Seth, this kind of exchange is illuminating and now you want to deprive the rest of us??
Janine – If you are serious, I will continue. If not then, I will go.
Seth — I wouldn’t have said it were I not serious. I find these types of discussions fascinating — do continue
will do. I will continue the discussion, however my responses may be delayed. I really should be working more at work today than I have. I will take some break time to make responses and time after I get home.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible than any other religion. You can ask them any Bible question and they can show you right in the Bible where the answer is. Next time they come to your door, have fun and ask questions. I’ve even seen JW children defend their faith. The JW’s also know a lot about other religions, not just their own. It’s because they learn how to study and how to teach and they take their religion seriously. They have to … because they’re taking their faith to the streets. Pretty awesome if you ask me. Has anyone ever had a Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Methodist, etc. randomly come to your door to talk about God?
@Seth
The methods used to determine the age of the earth were not circular. They were determined by using Radiometric dating. I won’t get into the finer details but all objects on earth have some amount of Carbon-14. This carbon decays over time. By factoring in the rate of decay they can determine the age of the object. By using this method along with other methods they have determined the age of the earth to be about 4 billion years old. You seem to have cherry picked and pointed out single method yet flawed method which was not even used in determining the age of the earth.
As for evolution, yes you are right it is only a theory. But there is a lot of evidence pointing to the existence of evolution.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdm5he_richard-dawkins-demonstrates-laryng_tech
And keep in mind that there is a lot more evidence of evolution than just that one, such as fossil evidence of our ancestors, difference.
A simple internet search of “evidence of evolution” will bring up many such examples.
As for studying the “Gap Theory”. Well its my turn to use your excuse for denying evolution back onto you. Gap theory is only a theory. Why should Gap theory be so much superior to simply believing that the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years when it has much less evidence supporting it?
Peter – You are correct, it is a theory and there is “evidence of creation” all around you. Documented evidence of things that by any stretch of the imagination could not have happened by chance. However, secular scientist refuse to address these things because they know it will affect their overall teachings of Evolution as scientific fact.
And while I’m on the subject of Evolution theory, should we not teach our students that Evolution is a THEORY and not FACT and present the alternative theory to students as well. This is what is taking place in the private school sector. Why can’t we do it in the public school sector. (I know I taught science in the private school sector for 5 years. Now I only corrupt the mind of children in they way they handle their money and work on computers – Both of which I have a degree for, and for science if anyone was wondering. A science degree I got a public university.)
Your theory that Carbon 14 dating is accurate is flawed by the admission of those who are trying to prove their own theory. They admit that carbon dating is really only accurate for about 100,000 years and after that point there is so little carbon 14 left in the organism they cannot date it. They then stamp a date on an object by know what type of organism they are dating. In the times they have dated organisms blindly, they have determined many of these organism that were supposed to be 1.5 million years old to be only 10k-15k years old. Then when they find out what the organism was they were dating they start making excuses for why the dating method was incorrect.
Also in order to hold C14 dating to such a high esteem, one would have to assume that C14 has been constant over all the years that organism has been dead. This cannot be quantified, therefore the theory of C14 dating accuracy is flawed.
Yes the Gap Theory is a Theory. That is why it is called the Gap Theory and not Gap Fact. It is a theory that is based on the idea that we are not the first earth that has been here and that is the reason for many things appearing older than the held to 6k-15k age of the earth. It was there for reading and not to present as fact. This board has present things for me to read, so I was presenting one thing for others to read. In order to have a valuable dialog, one must understand the position of the opposition and not just yell down at them.
I must go now and Conservatively corrupt the minds of High School seniors on how to responsibly manage their money.
I will address the idea of human evolution based off of different skeletal structures of humans later. There is so much to be said. Just think on this. There are are different breeds of dogs, cats, birds, fish, and monkeys, but those different breeds don’t mean that a fish, became a bird became a cat, became a dog, became a monkey, became a human. Just as there are different breeds of animals there are different breeds of humans with different characteristics.
Scientific theory is different from a theory as you understand it. In science, a theory is a concept based on empirical data which explains a set of phenomena testable through experiment.
The Theory of Gravity and the Theory of Relativity are two examples of scientific theories as are the Theory of Quantam Mechanics and Theory of Plate Tectonics.
Scientific theories are subject to peer review. Creationist ‘theories’ are not. There is no comparison regardless of what Answers in Genesis claims.
Sorry Mario, you may ban me from commenting after this, but you are wrong. Your idea that the Theory of Evolution is held in the same standard at the Theory of Gravity, Relativity, Mechanics, or Plate Tectonics is a poor attempt to prove your own idea that there can be no such thing as an Intelligent Designer (ID). The four you you have mentioned are all Observable, Measurable and Quantifiable, the three element required to be considered a valid scientific fact. Evolution does not meet these three requirement and is therefore qualified as a scientific theory that is not based on irrefutable facts but rather a religious belief structure that there can be no God.
The accusation that Creationist Theories are not subject to a peer review is you own of opinion of what a valid peer review should be. The theory is reviewed, and time after time evidence is produced to support the idea of Creation (ID). Just because the review is done by those that do not completely support the politically accepted theory of Evolution does not mean that the peer review is invalid.
I am not stating that it is a theory as “I understand it”. I am stating that it is a theory by Definition. Unless of course your rewrite the science books and say that it’s fact even though it doesn’t meet the predetermined requirements, which seems to be done in our schools and society as a whole. Even you yourself says it has to be testable by experimentation. Name the experiment that has produced an evolutionary change from one species of organism to another. You can’t because it has not happened. You can produce genetic mutations, cross breeding and natural selection, but none of these changed species only breeds or physical characteristic. You can produce “evidence” of different breeds of humans or apes, but you can’t produce anything that shows an evolutionary change form one species to another. Even the skeletal system “Lucy” on which evolutionist hang their hats is only a partial skeletal system on which scientist have built an entire body with hair and features to match their own bias of what they think the evolutionary link should look like. Just because some guys at the Discover Channel(TM) – which I personally like watching – can produce a computer generated moving model of what they think she should look like does not make it fact.
If your own idea is to ignore the laws of science to accept the idea of pure chance creating what is around you, that is your choice, your belief and your religion. You have free will to accept or deny the Biblical account of Creation, but to stand and say that Evolution is not really a theory but a fact is ludicrous and a falsification of true scientific research and understanding.
Like I said, you may ban me from speaking on your blog, that is your choice, and that is fine. But I would respectfully request you approve this one last entry into the discussion without any changes.
Seth – You still not have addressed the issue of the mountains of evidence that suggest evolution is true. Did you watch the video regarding the laryngeal nerve? If God is real, then why did he design it so that the laryngeal nerve loops all the way down to the heart, around an artery, and then back up to the throat, instead of straight from the brain to the throat? Is God stupid?
Also I should point out that Evolution is only a theory because the only way of definitively proving it would be to go back in time and observe it as it happens.
And what is this so called documented evidence of creation? Your arguement is saying that just because its unimaginable its not possible? It would have been impossible for early Greek philosophers to come up with the
When it comes to radiometric dating, Carbon-14 is not the only element available to conduct tests with. Uranium/lead can also be measured and these are able to be used to measure age of objects far older than 10,000 years. I should also point out that even 10,000 years is older than the biblical age of the earth.
The Gap theory you point out is very weak. You would believe a theory that was made up in order to support biblical claims of the age of the earth, rather than a theory which is supported by very observable scientific claims? Gap theory is not a traditional theory as Mario above me has stated.
Seth, do me a favor. Stop referring to me banning you from this site for expressing your beliefs in the respectful manner you have shown. I have never suggested I would ban you and have no intention of doing so. OK?
That said, your comment above is filled with so many inaccuracies, I don’t know how to begin. With all due respect, you have no understanding of the scientific method whatsoever and your understanding of evolution is completely flawed. This might help.
I could cite you a hundred examples of how evolution has been both observed and tested but I’ll give you just one. Fruit flies.
Final point. Your understanding of Intelligent Design is also flawed as is ID itself which has been shown to be a weak attempt at making Creationism appear scientific. But even so, ID allows for microevolution. It is macroevolution (creation of new species) which ID does not accept.
Anyway, as I’ve mentioned before, the Theory of Evolution does not speak of the existence of God.
The problem with this line of discourse is that Seth is starting with a belief (creation according to the Bible) and mangling the science to fit.
How about dropping the bias and observing the natural world, then drawing conclusions based on logic? Scientists would never start with the idea that the Earth was created in 6 days 6-15k years ago and then try to figure out how their observations jibe with the original bias of that story.
Believe what you feel comfortable with, but don’t mangle science and scientific method in an effort to rationalize your beliefs.
Seth, you are showing your true colors if you are accusing Mario of either banning people for simply disagreeing or editing contributed comments (as where you said, “But I would respectfully request you approve this one last entry into the discussion without any changes.”) Are you one of these people walking around with a persecuted Christian complex? Or is it projection – banning or editing others being the sort of thing you would do if you were in Mario’s place?
Ok, Mario just said it way better :)
My last comment. Then I need to do the work I get paid to do. I am not worried about ridicule or running around with a complex (oh he’s denying it, therefore he really is, hmmmm). I have studied science for many years, from my teenage years to now, and I have looked at the scientific evidence and have not found where it could all happen by chance. It takes more faith to believe it happened by pure chance than by ID. The nerve you speak of has been addressed and has been debated. Those who believe in ID have posed a reason why the nerve is designed the way it is, but because it “helps support” evolution, that theory is not taken into consideration. I get frustrated when things that are unknown have a theory developed about them and then hold the theory as fact because the theory fits into the idea that Evolution is scientific fact. It’s not fact, plain and simple. The same as Creation is not fact. They both take that wonderful thing called FAITH. (but faith in what? That’s the biggest question.)
You insist that I don’t look through it from a religious bias. I ask you to do the same. When one goes in to prove evolution, there has often been scientific mangling to fit a preconceived idea. The complexity of nature around you screams the existence of an intelligent designer and not pure chance.
As far as the comment to not edit the comment or censure what was said come from a history of discussing matters with those who do not hold beliefs the same as I and having comments changed, delete or edited. Since I do not know Mario and do not know his personal bias or actions, I was only requesting that everything is posted. He has not changed or refused any post, but since the last post was directed to him, I did not know if he would find it as an attack or if he would be open to allowing it to go through. So no it was not a fear of being silenced by the masses, but rather a long history of being shutout for my beliefs.
Yes, the Gap Theory is a far fetched theory that I find interesting. It is not held by tradition by anyone in the mainstream Christian community.
Another problem with you assumption that “atheists tend to grow into their beliefs after reflection and study” is that you have no evidence to back this up. The problem here is that this study doesn’t claim that atheists research before choosing their belief sets. You also have the problem of actual research showing that nearly half of all children raised in atheist homes go on to become theists as adults. So apparently, when atheist children question and research their own belief system they tend to leave it behind in favor of, usually evangelical christian, beliefs. So in that vein you could suggest that atheists don’t question their belief systems and when they do they abandon atheism.