47 thoughts on “A Message For The Religious Right

  1. Just read the article Charlie linked to. It contains the following passage from the Gospel of Mark.

    “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

    The writer then writes. “While other churches ignore this passage or treat it metaphorically, serpent handlers follow it literally.”

    Aside from a fringe group of fanatics, most of Christianity chooses to ignore that particular Bible passage. Yet, most of Christianity chooses to emphasize the following passage from the same Bible.

    “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

    Hypocrites and bigots, the whole bunch.

  2. They also seem to not heed the Lord’s admonishment given in Exodus 31:15;

    “Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”

    Looks like I need to pack a few weapons into the local mall and smite all the sinners. The Jews and Seventh Day Adventists will be spared today. I will return for them next Saturday.

  3. There is another site that explains how these people think. Check it out if you get a chance.


  4. Well said.
    If the religious right (Catholic Church as well) want to continue to get involved in political issues, take away their TAX EXEMPT STATUS. The IRS should be allowed to tax them like anyone else.

  5. Charlie,

    Earlier this morning I read another blog posting on the snake handler Mark Wolford and there are a large number of interesting (and witty) comments there. Unfortunately, we cannot be sure that he’s been deleted from the gene pool – Wolford’s father died, also from handling snakes, at age 39 when the son was 15. Although none of the articles went into detail about surviving family members, a sister is mentioned, and also a mother-in-law, so he probably has already reproduced.

    I hope the snake is OK.

  6. Some thoughts on the urge to mix church and state.

    1. Religionists must not have a very high opinion of their deity if they think it needs to be protected by civil law as well as their own elders, preachers, imams, priests, bishops and popes.

    2. They must also have a low opinion of the faith of their followers if their dictates must carry the weight of civil law.

    3. They have yet to tumble to the notion that if they cannot enforce their precepts without criminal penalty that maybe some of those precepts are no longer valid in today’s society.

    4. So many people on the religious right say that government is bad, yet they want that same evil government to enforce religious rules.

    4a. If they can’t trust public school teachers not to teach evolution, how can they trust them to teach them how to pray?

    Corollary to 4a: If they expect that the children need to learn religion in public schools, it must be because the parents are either to lazy or to ignorant to teach it to them at home or too cheap to have them instructed through their churches.

  7. And what you lefties don’t understand is that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and unless we return to those principles, we are doomed. Congress is not a Church but it is a place which requires the presence of God every bit as much as a Church. We are a Christian nation. Deal with it.

  8. Dear redState girl, I bet you can explain to all us subversive atheistic lefties why the treaty with Tripoli of 1796/1797 was approved unanimously by our congress and signed by John Adams when article 11 of the treaty states unequivocally that we were “not” founded as a Christian nation.

    ” Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    Remember this was approved “unanimously” by congress!!!

  9. The line you quote from the Treaty of Tripoli was inserted to appease the Ottomans and the Muslim state of Tripoli. It was nothing more than a diplomatic document and and an example of 18th century politics. You may argue this point but what you cannot argue with is the wording of the Declaration of Independence.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

    On July 5, 1776, John Adams wrote this to his wife.

    “The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever more.”

    Let’s not even bring up the Mayflower Contract. Facts are a nasty thing.

  10. Well, That certainly explains everything very well. The founding Fathers were a pack of lying bastards who only engaged in politics and meant nothing they said. Thanks for the enlightenment redState girl.

    Now would you explain to all we hard headed lefties why Thomas Jefferson rewrote the New Testament with the all mentions of the miracles of Jesus removed, and made the following comment;

    “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.” -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

    Benjamin Franklin who is my favorite of all the founders had this to say, and I might add, he said it eloquently;

    “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

    “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”

    Thomas Paine had this to say;

    “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. ”

    Now please redState girl, enlighten us as to what the founders really were thinking when they made these comments.

  11. My Favorite is –

    “The Gov’t of the U.S. is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
    The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”
    – George Washington The First President of the United States of America clearly stating the direction intended for the Nation.

  12. redState girl: The line you quote from the letter of John Adams to his wife was inserted to appease his father-in-law, who was a minister (knowing that he read her mail). Prove otherwise.

    The Mayflower Compact (not “Contract” – if you’re going to cite a source, at least get it right) is a statement for governance of a colony, not the nation that arose from that or other colonies. Besides we who respect history all know that the Mayfair colonists came to America, not just to escape persecution from King James but also to establish a theocratic tyranny of their own, in which people who did not obey the elders were cast out of the community to fend for themselves or die. If that’s your idea of a just government, you can have it; I don’t want any part of that.

    The Declaration of Independence, written by my greeat-multi-great uncle, is not the law of the land. It only mentioned a creator to appease religionists in the Continental Congress; Jefferson’s original draft did not include that wording.

    Where is there a mention of any deity in the Constitution, which is the law of the land? There is one, just one, and it is not germane to any governing principles, conduct of government or construction of law, and I dare you to try to find it.

    The First Amendment came about, not because all the various denominations were all lovey-dovey with each other; it was because they hated each other and couldn’t bear the thought of the hated Baptists, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Methodists or Quakers gaining the upper hand. Worse yet, favor (or public office) could fall to a Catholic servant of the Whore of Babylon. Better the possibility that a Jew, A Mahometan or even an infidel become a judge or governor than a Catholic. American secularism was not born of religious amity but of religous prejudice and hate. Try reading Founding Faith: The Birth of Religious Freedom in America by Stephen Waldma – that is if you read more than one book.

    Oh, and facts aren’t nasty (except to people who deny them); they are stubborn. Here is the original quote: “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” Wanna know who said that? It was John Adams.

  13. So you have what you call examples of appeasement and I have mine. What you cannot deny is that 80% of Americans are Christian of one denomination or another. If that does make us a Christian nation, what does? What I don’t understand from the left is why religion scares you all as much as it does. Christianity preaches love and acceptance. What do you find so terrible about that? A government that uses the principles taught by Jesus as a moral compass would not go against any principles of liberalism I’m aware of. You should embrace Christianity in government and not be frightened by it. It makes us a better people and it is what made this country so great.

  14. Redstate girl. The evangelical sect of this country are no different then Islamist fundamentalist.
    The constitution was not a religious document and not inspired by god.
    The Jesus that shaped my moral compass, was a kind, generous, loving man.
    I learned all I needed to at the debates when the repubs applauded at the death executions, cutting off food stamps and healthcare and aid to the poor.
    God is supposed to pass judgement upon believers death. Why in the world do the religious right believe that they are the mafia enforcers of the bible. Do they believe that God needs a hand? If a woman gets an abortion, none of your business, if God has a problem with he, I’m sure that he will convey that directly to her.
    And why do you cherry pick your beliefs from the bible. Seafood is an abomination…do some picketing at red lobster.
    If your child talks back….break out the stones.
    If your neighbor is cutting the lawn on a Sunday, gather a mob and set him straight.

  15. You have stated an argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy. It could just as easily be that half of those 80% of people who say they are Christian do so because they’re afraid to admit otherwise* – it’s like asking a man if he’s stopped beating his wife. Just remember – Christians and Christianity are not the same thing. Almost all of the most vocal Christians I have met are hateful and barely contain their violent impulses. Does Christianity preach love and acceptance? Why don’t you ask George Tiller – oh, wait, you cant. He’s dead by Christian hands, shot point-blank in a church. Why don’t you ask Greg McKendry or Linda Kraeger – oh wait, you can’t. They were shot dead, in a church, by someone who thought their type of religion wasn’t Christian enough. Why don’t you ask Fred Phelps? Oh, wait – he’s too busy picketing the funerals of people who died for their country. Why don’t you ask Matthew Shephard? Oh, wait – you can’t. He’s dead, killed by god-fearing Christian homophobes. What do you have to say about Curtis Knapp, the Kansas pastor who, just a few days ago, called on the government to kill all gays? What’s that you say? They’re not real Christians? Why don’t you and all your fellow real Christians publicly and honestly repudiate those people? You can’t, because I think most of you privately agree with them.

    The principles taught by Jesus (well maybe not Luke 14:26 or Matthew 10:34-39) may seem okay but politicians don’t obey civil law – what makes you think they won’t treat the bible as badly as they do the constitution? Time and again I hear about how Jesus was a liberal – how he favored the poor, disdained the rich, showed mercy and kindness to sinners and the downtrodden. Time and again I see Christians doing the exact opposite – coddling the rich, mistreating the poor, and women, gays and people of ethnic minorities. I hear evangelists preaching hate and I hear promoters of the “prosperity gospel” telling their dupes followers they can all be rich…as long as the preachers get their cut first.

    I have read the constitution of the Confederate States of America, and it invokes God from the very beginning:

    We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity — invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God — do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.

    Yet it was written specifically to invoke divine blessings on perpetuating slavery (which is something neither the Old nor the New Testaments condemn, either). What makes you think that a nonsecular government would be any more benevolent than the Confederacy was? How long would it be before a Curtis Knapp convinced some legislator to impose government-sanctioned death penalties for religious offenses**?

    Yes, organized religion scares us because of what some of its people do in its name and under its banner. I shall repeat myself and say that if you think a majority of Christians don’t agree with the fanatics, the dominionists and the reconstructionists as not representative of Christianity, then why aren’t you and those like you speaking out and publicly denouncing those people? Could it be that you’re just as afraid of them as we are? Or, again, is it because you agree with them but just don’t want to admit it?

    When it comes to Christians, I agree with Ambrose Bierce:

    Christian, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

    I also agree with Mohandas K. Gandhi: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    *It’s been found that, when answering certain questions on certain topics, such as church attendance, brushing one’s teeth, alcohol consumption or sexual matters, people will frequently lie, even to an anonymous survey taker, to give a better impression of themselves.

    **Or ran for office himself. Fred Phelps, running for the US senate seat for Kansas, received 30.8% of the vote.

  16. Thanks, Sydney! I just downloaded it.

    My next read after “It’s Worse Than You Think.”

    Mario, the religious right won’t be happy until there is a cross atop all government buildings. And until the Republican Party returns to sanity, this is the future they want to enforce upon us. Since they don’t currently appear to be fixable, we can only hope for their demise as a party.

  17. E.A. I so admire you! There are simply no words.

    redStategirl – we’re all anxiously awaiting your response, if you have one. If you seriously consider what E.A. has so eloquently stated, you will only be able to agree with her.

    And keep in mind the words are “endowed by their Creator” not THE or OUR, “their” — so we each get to decide for ourselves who that is.

    I recall the day the minister of our church showed up because my mother hadn’t been attending (due to taking care of my grandmother and great aunt) and rather than offering her assistance, the only thing the minister was interested in was her paying her tithe as the church needed a new AC system.

    Then I married a man who had three uncles that were ministers. I learned all I needed to know about religion from those experiences. Thanks, but no thanks.

    When I pass by a church that takes up a city block (or even a half block) – that tells me all I need to know about those who enter. They care more for the material things in life than they care for what Jesus stood for. A church whose minister drives around in a Cadillac Escalade (or something similar) has no interest in taking care of their flock or those in need, only their own needs.

    I found it interesting that Cardinal Dolan, unhappy with the ruling on contraceptives (NEVER mentioned in the Bible, but an edict in the 1920s by the Pope at that time), decided to hold hostage the church’s help for the poor — and then I learned that much of the funding came from tax payer dollars given to the church to provide that help.

    I guess all those donations the right claims they make (or would make, therefore, being able to eliminate government help) just aren’t enough to keep up with the demand without help from the taxpayers.

    You are welcome to you religion, whatever it may be – but our rights under the Constitution give us the right to reject your version of religion, if we so choose. So why must the religious right feel they have the right to impose their beliefs on the rest of us? We don’t begrudge you the right to believe, so why must you demand that we do?

  18. Mr. Blair ..very well stated…loved it ! Sydney gets kudos too !

    Speaking of “frightened by Christianity”……

    Yes, there was a time when a degree of sanity did exist within the ranks of the Republican party, a time when sanity had not yet been overrun by delusion and madness…

    “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, ‘these people frighten me’. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.”
    ~ Barry Goldwater, November 1994, as quoted in John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience (2006)

  19. I must say, I was raised Pentecostal and the scripture:

    “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

    is a scripture that my denomination takes very seriously and literally, in which I do also.

    Pentecostals are not “snake handlers” as that would be tempting God which is wrong and instead of showing faith, shows a lack of faith.

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrew 11:1

    I take my religion very seriously but I also don’t believe my religion has anything to do with the government, neither did Jesus. What one believes is all about them, not about me or you or anyone else. If someone shares their faith that’s wonderful but one person’s faith or religion, or one group’s faith or religion should not be foisted on to others who choose to believe or not believe.

  20. True Christianity is about forgiveness.

    When a man walked into a small school house to mow down ten little Amish girls and then killed himself, the families of those little girls had only forgiveness to the man who did such a terrible thing. The Amish community only showed compassion for the family of the man who killed their little girls.

    This was a true example of what Christianity truly looks like, not someone like Fred Phelps who has not concept of the love of God in the least.

    Jesus said that they would persecute you in my name, meaning they’ll come claiming to represent me and yet will persecute you.

    There are millions of God-loving Christians out there who lead lives of compassion and walk in love with everyone they know. I’ve met Christians who’ll take you into their homes and feed you and treat you like you’re family, just because of the immense love in their hearts. They don’t judge and they don’t condemn.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

    Also we should realize that a lot of people in this country call themselves Christian and never darken the church house doors unless there’s a wedding or a funeral. Ask most Americans though they’re churchgoers or not and they’ll tell you they’re Christian of some denomination.

    I also don’t go to church but I pray daily and seek to live a Christian life with love and forgiveness for everyone. I make mistakes and I falter but that doesn’t mean anything; I’m not perfect but I’m forgiven.

  21. I have also met many atheists who lead lives of compassion and walk in love with everyone they know. I have met atheists who will take you in their homes and treat you like family. All should understand that because a fellow traveller on this journey does not believe in God or a higher power, it does not mean they believe in satan.
    The same way that a person that is pro choice is not “cheering for abortions”.

  22. You speak truth Sidney. Not believing in God does not mean you can’t have a moral compass. I am from a fundamentalist Christian family who believed that the Bible was the inerrant word of God. I discovered on my own that this couldn’t possibly be true because there were so many contradictory passages in this supposed perfect text divinely handed down to man. All through my military service I considered myself an agnostic and even had that stamped on my dog tags.

    Today I consider myself a Buddhist which simply means that I have eschewed religion for spirituality, the difference being that religion is an outside force while spirituality resides in all of us and only needs a little encouragement to blossom forth. I believe that God is the all inclusive universe. That makes me a pantheist who, in the eyes of most evangelicals, would be an atheist.

    I believe that lack of compassion, stealing, cheating, etc., are all sinful. I don’t necessarily believe in heaven or hell but I do believe in karma. I can’t disprove the existence of God but there is so little evidence to support his existence that I don’t think it is worth wasting time on trying to either prove or disprove him/her/it.

    If there is no life after death, which I strongly suspect to be the case, that is all the more reason to live a moral life the first and only time you go around. Get it right! This is your only chance! Leave a legacy that will make people reminder you fondly rather than as “That despicable old bastard, I’m glad he’s dead.”

    I don’t trust people who can only live moral lives in order to gain favor in the next life. The Christian idea of heaven sounds pretty boring anyway. I kinda agree with Mark Twain who said, “Go to heaven for the climate but go to hell for the company.”

  23. Facts are of no use against the ones like Redstate girl.They are the same brain set as the ones that followed Bob Jones and took poison.Reason is a concept that is beyond their comprehension.To quote Frank”Talking to them is like talking to a dining room table”It leads to frustration and depression.

  24. morton, sometimes you have to ask people like that if they would like to listen to you, and let you try to persuade them to abandon their faith and follow yours (or lack of it). For that is what redState girl and people like her are trying to sell us: “Forget about what you believe. I know the truth and it’s the only way.”

    She doesn’t care what any of the rest of us believes; she only wants us to be lockstep with her, shoulder to shoulder, heart to heart, Satchel to Paige. If she wouldn’t listen to us, why should we listen to her?

    Oh, and it was Jim Jones who had the poisoned Flavor-Aid®* down in Guyana; Bob Jones** is the guy with the fake university in South Carolina.

    *It wasn’t actually Kool-Aid®.
    **But some would consider Bob just as poisonous.

  25. E.A. you are right,but Bob or Jim they are 2 sides on the same coin. As you state “She wouldn’t listen to us”then you agree why waste time talking to head full of rocks?

  26. I honestly feel sorry for you people. You speak of religion as if it is poison. To use Jim Jones and a fringe, deranged sect as an example of what is wrong with Christianity is indigenous and a sad reflection of your heartless souls. You ignore what I said previously. We live in a Christian nation where 80% of its citizens are believers in Jesus Christ, our Savior. Blair’s explanation that people lie when questioned on their faith is a weak excuse and a denial of the facts.

    I don’t ask you to listen to me. Listen to the words of Jesus instead. What is it about his preachings that you find so repulsive? He gave his life so we may be free. He endowed on our Founders the wisdom to form the greatest nation the world has ever known. How can you deny this simple truth? I don’t understand people who call themselves Americans yet spend all their time denying our religious roots and criticizing our greatness.

    If you call yourselves Americans then act like one. And if you cannot do that, then please step aside so the rest of us can continue to build our nation and fulfill our God’s wishes.

  27. Redstategirl, you want us to step aside so religious nuts like you can destroy our nation? I don’t think so. Who made you the Great One to sit in judgement of other’s patriotism and love of their country? No one is denying your right to your religion. We just don’t want you and your politicians to shove YOUR religion down out throats. And if you don’t understand that, then it is you who should STFU!

  28. And if you cannot do that, then please step aside so the rest of us can continue to build our nation and fulfill our God’s wishes.

    This is all the proof I need to know that for you, fulfilling your deity’s wishes means eliminating other people, either by brushing them aside, denying their rights as citizens, asking them to accept second-class status or maybe something worse. This is why we fear religion and government being in bed together.

    How about this idea? Why don’t you and your friends all move to one state – one with a fairly low population, like Wyoming, Montana or one of the Dakotas* so you don’t displace the people who want to move out – and take it over and run your own little theocracy? You can even build a high fence to keep us fallen people out.

    *From what I’ve read, not too many will want to leave.

  29. redState girl,,

    You talk of this country’s greatness, let me ask you this: who shall be great in heaven and who shall be the least great?

    You should also know that just because 80 percent of Americans claim to be Christians, doesn’t mean they’re all Christians. I know lots of people who claim Christianity while they speak hatefully toward others and carry bigotry in their hearts. Trust me, those who hate don’t have Christ in their hearts. They can call themselves Christians until they die but they’d better get some love or they’ll miss the boat entirely.

    As Christians we need to have humility, not go around bragging about how great we are. This is one of the main problems with America – is its pride. If you think for once that God loves you or any other American more than He loves those little children in Africa that go hungry every day and die of hunger by the thousands, every single day, because of the greed of wealthy men, then you’re sadly mistaken.

  30. I don’t ask you to listen to me. Listen to the words of Jesus instead. What is it about his preachings that you find so repulsive? He gave his life so we may be free. He endowed on our Founders the wisdom to form the greatest nation the world has ever known. How can you deny this simple truth? I don’t understand people who call themselves Americans yet spend all their time denying our religious roots and criticizing our greatness.

    redState girl I’d suggest that a good many religious leaders out there aren’t following the teachings of Jesus. I have absolutely nothing against the teachings of Jesus. I just wish those who claim to follow his teachings actually did so. Let’s start with bearing false witness – plenty of that going around by so called Christian leaders. Where is the outrage of their congregations when their pastors stand before the pulpit and lie or choose interpretations of the Bible (everyone seems to have their own — how does one decide which is correct?) that are out of sync with main stream beliefs. Romney claims to also be a Christian — but apparently there is nothing in the Mormon religion that prohibits lying — this coming from someone who portends to be a leader in his church!

    I admire the Jesus portrayed in the Bible — I do not admire those who co-opt Jesus to claim to somehow be better than those who disagree with them.

    Someday someone is going to need to explain to me how God or Jesus decided to make this country “great” — great for whom? I’d venture there are a lot of poor people in this country who don’t think it’s so great being here. And I’m guessing the Germans, the French, the Spanish and especially the Italians — after all the Vatican IS IN ITALY, not in the U. S. — feel God has smiled down on them and their countries as well.

    What was that in the Bible about pride? Something about it being a sin, wasn’t it?

    If you want to claim Christianity, then by all means do so, but then you really should live the life of a Christian – being tolerant, and forgiving, helping the poor, disavowing the money changers. Lots there to live up to. You’d better get at it and stop wasting your time here.

    We are Americans and we believe in this country and we also believe as the founders did – religion has no place in government.

  31. From a libertarian’s view, this thread looks like two competitors battling it out. You both believe that your plan for protecting yourselves from uncontrolled people is the best plan, yet neither of you want to be controlled by the other.

  32. “If you call yourselves Americans then act like one. And if you cannot do that, then please step aside so the rest of us can continue to build our nation and fulfill our God’s wishes.”


    You guys did better than I would do if I were to respond to that one. Mine would consist of only two words.

  33. Tommy…what is the Libertarians solution to keep theocracy from enacting religious, bible based, taliban-like laws?
    Because wheather or not you believe in government and/or federal law, this country could accumulate enough fanatics in DC to rock your world.
    The way I see it the repubs are very close to closing the deal on their “starve the beast” ideology, leaving everyone at the mercy of the few wealthy “job creators” with polluted air and water for all.
    Is that what libertarians want?

  34. Black doesn’t define white, Sydney. We won’t go back to raw sewage in our rivers if we cut the size of the federal government.

    “Tommy…what is the Libertarians solution to keep theocracy from enacting religious, bible based, taliban-like laws?”

    It’s called the ballot box. If more people than not want a “taliban-like” law enacted, the only remedy is to challenge it’s constitutionality or get it repelled. Kinda like what’s happening with The Affordable Care Act.

  35. The question seems to be NOT how many claim to be “christian” but rather – Is our Government founded upon Christianity?

    History shows the simple answer is… NO – IT IS NOT !

    A few notes –

    The U.S. government derives from PEOPLE, (not God), as it clearly states in the preamble: “We the PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union….”

    The omission of “God” in the Constitution did not come out of forgetfulness, but rather out of the Founding Fathers purposeful intentions to keep government separate from religion.

    The Constitution implies both in the 1st Amendment. As to our freedoms, the 1st Amendment provides exclusionary wording:

    “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion”….

    Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a “wall of separation between church and State.”

    James Madison had also written that “Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.”

    There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.

    Many Christian’s who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as “proof” of a Christian America.

    The reason appears obvious: the Declaration “mentions” God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its “absence” of God.)

    However, the Declaration of Independence DOES NOT represent any LAW of the United States. It came BEFORE the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution).

    The Declaration says NOTHING about our rights secured by Christianity. It bears repeating: “Governments are instituted among MEN.”

    Moreover, the mentioning of “God” in the Declaration does NOT describe the personal “God” of Christianity.

    “Deism” is the belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

    Thomas Jefferson who held “deist” beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.”

    This “nature’s view of God” agrees with “deist” philosophy and beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.

    An insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation.

    Officially called the “Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary,” most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

    “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government DID NOT found itself upon Christianity.

    PS – “Jesus had brown skin and he didn’t speak English.” Ironically, these are the very type of people so-called “christian” Republicans seek to eliminate from American society.

  36. It is interesting to note that libertarian ideas main reason for existence is because of their influence on the Republican Party.

    To a large extent Republicans ARE Libertarians on STEROIDS.

    They form the ideological basis for the Reagan/Gingrich/Bush revolution. The Republicans have taken the libertarian “Government is Bad” horse and ridden far with it:

    Reagan’s “Government is the problem”
    Phil Gramm’s contention that the country’s “economic crisis” and “moral crisis” were due to “the explosion of government”
    Talk radio hosts’ advocacy of armed resistance to “jack-booted government thugs”
    Dole’s 1996 campaign, advancing the notion that taxes were “Your Money” being taken from you
    Gingrich’s Contract with America (welfare cuts, tax cuts, limitations on corporations’ responsibility and on the government’s ability to regulate them)
    Dick Armey’s comment that Medicare (medical aid for the elderly) is “a program I would have no part of in a free world”
    Bush’s tax cuts, intended not only to reward the rich but to “starve the beast”, in Grover Norquist’s words: to create a permanent deficit as a dangerous ploy to reduce social spending
    Jeb Bush’s hope that the Florida state government buildings would one day be empty
    Intellectual support for attacks on the quality of working life in this county and for undoing the New Deal

    Libertarians love to sit on their imaginary “seat of self-righteous judgement” criticizing the “imperfections” of others beliefs – while the success and/or failures of their OWN fact-free arguments and doctrines, remain incapable of being proven – seems like Libertarians are filled, as Gingrich once said, with “PIOUS BALONEY”.


    “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.
    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if
    labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and
    deserves much the higher consideration.”
    – Abraham Lincoln

  38. OK, RedState Girl, I will answer your question.

    Yes, of course Jesus taught wonderful things. I am not a christian, but I will agree with that. In my Bible the quotes from Jesus are in red ink. Quotes from the savior.

    So stick with that. Help the poor. Preach love. Turn a blind eye to evil and discrimination and persecution. THAT is what Jesus would have done according to the New Testament.

    The problem I have with many “right-wing Bible thumpers” is what you missed in this post. They pick and choose from the Old Testament to fulfill their agenda. We are apparently supposed to murder those who work on the Sabbath. That has no place in secular governance and neither does “This is a Christian Nation.” What you forget is that I am an American and I should have the right to be free FROM your religion. And Tom Cruise’s religion too. And Mitt Romney. And Madonna.

    I will never deny you the right to worship. I would march by your side to protect that right. Why don’t you repay me by not trying to legislate me with your ancient writings – no matter how POPULAR they are. Stick with the ACTUAL teachings of your savior and spare me the self serving ramblings of the religious right – those who soil the name of their lord and savior by using their “Religion” to attack others and “Turn this into a Christian Nation.” Lord, I hope it indeed is NOT that kind of Christian Nation.

  39. Libertarians love to sit on their imaginary “seat of self-righteous judgement” criticizing the “imperfections” of others beliefs – while the success and/or failures of their OWN fact-free arguments and doctrines, remain incapable of being proven – seems like Libertarians are filled, as Gingrich once said, with “PIOUS BALONEY”

    Excellent, GoldenSun. I gave it its own post.

  40. Thank You Mario !
    Coming from you and ALL the wonderful things you have done, I consider it a high compliment and an Honor.
    Sincerely, GS

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