You knew that the boys and girl vying to become the Republican presidential nominee next year were lying through their teeth but you may not have known by how much.
If you had to guess whether President George W. Bush or President Barack Obama cut taxes more in his first term, which one would you choose? Probably President Bush, right? After all, the “the Bush tax cuts” were massive. And President Obama is the one calling for the expiration of some of those tax cuts. He’s also pushing for more revenue as we try to address our long-term fiscal imbalance.
Given all that, you could be forgiven for guessing that President Bush is the bigger tax cutter. But you’d actually be wrong. By the end of his first term, President Obama will have signed into law a series of tax cuts that, taken together, exceed the value of those signed into law by President Bush.
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By 2012, bills signed into law by President Obama will have reduced tax revenues by about $900 billion, or 1.5 percent of GDP. And if he gets his way, and Congress passes another $250 billion in cuts, the total of all Obama tax cuts will rise to about 2 percent of GDP. That’s close to twice as big as the tax cut tally at the close of President Bush’s first term.
In graphic form, here’s what it looks like.
But again, don’t wait for any of the clowns running in the GOP primary to mention any of this. They won’t. In fact they’ve been saying quite the opposite in their attempt to paint the President as Attila the Tax Raiser. Not that any of it really matters. The fact is that if you were able to present the tax-cutting numbers to your average I-HATE-OBAMA wingnut, it would not faze them a bit. When it comes to what they believe to be true (aka “I heard it on Fox”) as opposed to empirical data, the former always wins. We’ve seen it with the health care bill, the stimulus, climate change and just about any other hot button issue.
The right has been wildly successful at creating a brand of reality which has little to do with facts, data or truth and successfully selling it to their devout followers. So go ahead and try telling that Fox-loving, Obama-hating guy in the next cubicle that President Obama has cut taxes at twice the rate that Bush 43 did in his first term and what you’ll get back is a snicker and a “yeah right, libtard”.
No one messes with a wingnut’s reality. No one.
(h/t: Washington Monthly)
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The genuine threat Ron Paul, the best-known of American propagandists for our enemies, poses to our national security, his desire to disarm America, his opposition to any defense in the war on terror, and his acquiescence in an Iranian nuclear weapon should be focused on by the Iowa electorate.
The Obama-Paul line of accommodation, apology, and appeasement towards radical Islam and Iran. “…for you to say maybe in a year they might have a weapon, there’s a lot more saying they don’t have it.” The only evidence that Paul will accept is an atomic weapon in Iran’s hands. His policy of preemptive surrender and submission to radical Islam is the blueprint for national suicide for the U.S. I trust Michele Bachmann. She is as smart as a whip and tougher than steel–the little lady with a spine of titanium. She is loved by patriotic Americans; she is hated by the jihadist’s “useful idiots.”
If you choose FOX news,
You will get FOX views,
Because FOX conclusions
Are all FOX delusions.
Love this work….All are great but this one attracts!!!!!! It is so cogent and totally poignant.
Just one more way Obama is dissapointing to liberals.
disappointing Liberals….as someone recently stated, the liberals greatest detractor is another liberal…..btw, i big-time have concerns but disappointing…no that is the domain of the Right.
Michelle Bachmann is another whack a doodle and a liar to boot.
Mario, like The Pardu said, this post is outstanding and thoroughly sets the record straight. Thanks for all that you do. I don’t comment much but I’m a huge fan of your work.
Thank you, Kstreet. Much appreciated.
Hi Mario,
A great post.
Yes, there’s a lot of things that will never be spoken by Fox News, they don’t report things that doesn’t support their agenda. You’re also right about the current candidates for the Republican presidential ticket. They’re so busy seeing who can outdo the others when it comes to who’s the most unlike Obama and who’s the most conservative.
As far as I’m concerned, Obama’s done a great job, but some of those tax cuts need to expire. In fact, we need to reform our tax code so that millionaires and billionaires don’t continue to pay less tax than those who work for them.
They always seem to forget a good portion of the “stimulus” bill was tax cuts.
The Recovery Act and Jobs Act are tax cuts? Uh, What? Then George W.’s Medicare expansion and Education Bill were also tax cuts. Typical goofy liberal accounting .. kind of like Obamacare is going to cut the deficit … yea, right …
(AGREE w/fidlerten & Kstreet607)…..Yes, there were tax cuts in the Stimulus…..Did someone actually mention George W.?
Uh, that’s just the kind of slight of hand math I’m talking about … So the stimulus included $90 billion in tax cuts, but adds $500 billion in spending. Well, yea, there’s a tax cut in there, but what’s the point? What does that accomplish except being able to say Obama cut taxes …. When the country is bankrupt, that’s not success, that’s a complete failure. Oh, and, the entire original article involves a comparison with George W.
Derek —
You’re making Mario’s point, I see.
Check out: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/computer-virus-used-to-sabotage-irans-nuclear-plans-built-by-us-and-israel/story-e6frg6so-1225989304785
Note the date — and who the “appeaser” President was during that time. You think he had no hand in approval? Bachmann is a fool and an idiot. Thank heaven she will NEVER be President.
You know “stimulus success’ denial is a losing argument. The very basis of the argument is flawed as this nation was on the precipice of a 21st Century economic depression. Now, all of these ‘denialist’ will refuse to review any data as to how our nation fizzled to the state of its demise in 2007/12008. There are economist who accurately predicted that the GOP cuts to the stimulus package hurt the economy and may have stifled an improving economy. The $845 million was a few hundred millions shy of success even sooner. I find the argument very telling as I watched so many GOP ‘stimulus’ haters standing near construction projects with those ‘photo ready’ stimulus checks.
“Oh, and, the entire original article involves a comparison with George W.” Certainly capable of reading articles , here. Salient point was, can anyone from the Right actually defend George W.? Hell, that man was closeted from the 2008 Convention while Cheney and Rice were dispatched overseas. So, yes original article compares Bush, I am truly amazed one would come forth in defense of “W”. I believe that we have a historical opportunity to have lived during a period of the worse US president in modern times. # 43!
BTW, sorry if my wording above generated a thought process that was opposite of my meaning, my bad.
The Stimulus was nothing more than a pay off to state goverments and public labor unions to keep union dues flowing into Democratic coffers … clear as day. It just kept state workers employed for another year or so and extended unemployment…. Whoop-de-do … It did not do diddly squat for the economy … it just put this country deeper and deeper into debt. $17 trillion in debt and counting right now under this president … I’m a conservative but not necessarily a defender of Bush. I think he was a big-spending Republican and the TARP legislation that he approved was the jumping off point of this country heading on the fast-track to Greece. And if you look at Greece right now, it’s not a pretty picture. The PRIVATE sector drives the economy — not GOVERNMENT spending … I know that’s a hard concept for liberals to grasp, but it’s simply a fact …
Mr. Royce,
You said that the stimulus “did not do diddly squat for the economy”.
THAT IS A BLATANT, “MONSTROUS” lie which rated a ‘Pants on Fire’ rating from the fact checkers.
…the President’s Council of Economic Advisers estimated that between 2.5 million and 3.6 million jobs were created or saved by the stimulus through the fourth quarter of 2010.
Separately, the council’s report cited ‘four independent’ analyses by the Congressional Budget Office and three private economic analysis companies. Here’s what the groups found:
• CBO: Between 1.3 million and 3.6 million jobs saved or created.
• IHS/Global Insight: 2.45 million jobs saved or created.
• Macroeconomic Advisers: 2.3 million jobs saved or created.
• Moody’s Economy.com: 2.5 million jobs saved or created.
You whine about Tarp when the fact is that practically all the money has been paid back and taxpayers will actually make a profit, you whine about the stimulus and higher taxes when over 300 billion of stimulus was used to lower taxes for everyone, you whine about saving the car industry when it is a fact they are all making money now and providing thousands of jobs.
Don’t let the rich corporate special interests lie and decieve you into doing their bidding. Making the super rich richer in hopes some of that will trickle down to the middle class is insane economics.
PS – The United States of America is not Greece, that’s another Fox “News” talking point.
Royce,
Please navigate to the following link and take a good look at the blue chart (about three charts down the page) http://www.theprogressivesinfluence.com/p/data-scrollfeeding-brain-fuels-visceral.html
NOTE: I see that I have three charts which are not showing properly (will fix). That blue chart (CHART A below) shows the approximate time (within months) of the stimulus intervention and it shows an immediate and a related turnaround start . Now, I understand that chart is related to Private and Public Sector employment. Yet, it vectors well with a chart (CHART B below) that is further down the page (around chart number 17 or 18) that relates directly to the stimulus.
CHART A http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OtuEfKLeibg/TqR47Ja5fKI/AAAAAAAACWo/Egnlo5yOrwc/s640/Charts_Employment+Data_Private+vs.+public+employment+growth+-+January+2009+to+September+2011.jpg
CHART B http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6071/6088811219_7177d24faa.jpg
Sorry about the non visible charts. Will have to fix those.
Hey GoldenSun …. :-)
The Pardu,
Great info, thanks!
Well, if the President’s Council of Economic Advisors said so, then it must certainly be true? yea… riiiight…. Ok, so 2.5 million jobs saved or created (whatever that means). So, a bunch of government workers stay employed for another year. yee haw … My point once again. It’s the PRIVATE sector that drives the economy, not GOVERNMENT workers… I know it’s tough, but let that seep in … OK, here’s some whacky logic for you: Over $300 billion of stimulus was used to lower taxes, you say. The Stimulus is paid for with taxpayer dollars. So taxpayers paid $300 million so they could have their taxes lowered. Brilliant. The stimulus is nothing more than wealth distribution, plain and simple. And, yea, the U.S. is not Greece …. yet. But if we get 4 more years of Obama policies and we’ll all be singing “Greece is the word, is the word, is the word …” well, you know the chorus …
Royce said…”if the President’s Council of Economic Advisors” . Well, Royce, while it may have been w/differnt name WE certianly believed Bush’s Advisers as they crafted hidden expenditures, lied about the recession (until after the election), and while we watched the GOP turn its back on major US industires. So yeah, I guess I have to believe the data. I suppose the advisers and administration’s agencies could lie about “zero job growth”, use of stimulus dollars and various other measures that have worked…but what can I say? If the stimulus and other measures (in essence, failed, how do you accept the slowly improving economy? I mean what took place in 2009 that started all data moving opposite that of 400,000 to 750,000 job losses per month? It was not because the president might be perceived by some as handsome and it damned well was not based on his ethnicity, So help me understand your thoughts about the almost immediate economic swing swing?
Now, we must recognize that we will never see those charts you viewed on FOX News, so we have to accept that our paradigms regarding the economy and the stimulus (SAVED sectors), will not have a point of convergence.
Good dialog, Royce…….
I agree regardomg government reporting. I don’t believe much of what comes from the government these days … Here’s the crux of my argument that I think you will likely disagree: Government spending is NOT the solution to our economic crisis. Real and meaningful economic growth can ony come from the private sector. For that to happen, government needs to get out of its way, i.e., grease the skids (low taxes, less regulations, and no bailouts for the losers). After all, without private sector funding (taxes), government would come to a quick and helpless grinding halt … To put in another way, private industry is the “sugar daddy” of government.
“To put in another way, private industry is the “sugar daddy” of government.”
No, I will not agree as you indicate, but I think any viable economy needs both private and public sectors in sync (Synergy).
To your point,. Interesting when it was bad governance, failure to monitor regulation (FREE-MARKET; NO REGULATION) that allowed the private sector to run a muck. It is also the private sector that has farmed industries, jobs, and American lives overseas. So, I would be foolish to take a stance the the private sector fuels an economy ,conversely I would also be foolish if I subscribed to the conservative mindset that free reign for the private sector are the nation’s panacea. (BRIEF digression: The Right loves the private sector but the Right was willing to allow out auto industry to die out as was steel and other industries. A government intervention by Obama saved that entire industry, thus saving hundreds of thousands of jobs.
Too much reliance on an unfettered companies proved a real killer in 2007/2008. The very criticism you have leveled at the president and the administration were brought on by such free-market (Isms). Two points. it is clear that jobs come via the private sector (no doubt), but I also notice with some large companies that also means obscenely compensated executive teams (Often with failed performance as entitlements) Romney type of lay-off and trim specialist to fuel their family hoppers. Do you believe corporations are people?
Of course, you know hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs have gone away based on conservative and GOP strategies against unionism. Scott Walker proved that point.
Last point, it is a real testament to the state of our nation that government jobs provides opportunity for African-American men to work. Now, that is not because of cushy jobs and a lack of interest in really working, it is based in private sector discrimination but I would really rather not argue that point on Mario’s site. [Charles Blow of the NY Times (I THINK IT was the Times) ran a series on that topic; I cannot provide a link. ]
We might be wearing out out argument welcome on Mario’s cyber space :-)
Pardu, good points and nice discussion. We’re just on different pages regarding the public-private strategy. Government has no business in the car industry or any other industry … anyway, I can tell from your views that you would probably love my blog: http://solidright.com … Uh, maybe … take care …
bookmarking it now. I try to always BLOG reciprocate :-) : http://www.theprogressivesinfluence.com
“Point-counterpoint-retort” is good as long as people know when there is a solid case of ‘respectfully disagree”. Will check-in on the site, do same.
Thanks Mario for providing the arena for the debate..it was fun…
Anytime, Pardu. Thank you all for the lively discussion.
Royce, you said
May I ask just what it is that you think government does, if not wealth redistribution? Government is a not for profit entity – they don’t sell stuff like corporations do. That take your money – taxes – and spend it in various ways. You may not like where they spend it, but they don’t keep it in order to pad the bottom line.
It gets spent on defense, infrastructure (well, if we could get the GOP to move off the dime), the welfare of our citizens, and many investments for our future to name a few.
One of my co-workers complained recently about all the money that goes to DC. And I reply that yes, and much of it comes back to the states — there are websites that provide that information containing how many dollars each state sends vs how much comes back. His response was that, yes, but we here in WA don’t get back as much as we send.
And while that’s true, I replied, one must remember we are the United States and we take care of one another.
Government spending is a considerable amount of our GDP. And much of that money is paid to corporations who do work for the government – Homeland Security is one of those entities that far outnumbers government workers with private contractors.
Here’s a website that will give you some concept of where much of our money gets spent: http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/index.php?reptype=a You can drill down into your Congressional District and see what contracts have been awarded to each of the companies in those Districts. They are both union and non-union firms who do more things for us that we can probably imagine.
I’ll be the first one to tell you government can and should be streamlined to be made more efficient – much like the corporation I work for that could be 100 times better that it is – we’re still working on MS 2003 office and this is a NATIONWIDE corporation — you’d be surprised if I told you.
Deregulation is not the answer – nor is too much regulation – there must, as with anything be BALANCE. Corporations must be protected from other corporations and people must be protected from both corporations and government.
But back to the point – read some history about government and what it has done within the private sector since the founding documents were signed and George Washington was sworn in.
Government sold land (sometimes twice – just ask anyone who is from Kentucky!). They gave away literally millions of acres of land to the railroad barons, they’ve invested billions and billions – if not trillions since the founding in helping businesses get up and running – either with loans or grants. They’ve done the same thing by providing educated workers and roads for consumers to drive on to get to the stores,.
And these businesses are now sitting on trillions of dollars they are not investing because they have not had customers to demand their services or products. We’ve had no choice – whether you like it or not – but to keep both the banks and the auto companies up and running to keep money moving through the system as much as possible. A frozen economic system which is what we were facing would have brought the country down.
When businesses are not investing every economist in the country (unless they totally stupid) will tell you government has not choice but to spend. We have to figure out when to turn off the faucet – but we cannot until the private sector steps up.
And if you think the private sector is the sugar daddy of government, I’d suggest you take a long hard look at the grants, loans, subsidies and tax breaks these companies get – you might just change your mind.
How do you think the wealth of the middle class has been shifted to the 1%ers? 30 years of GOP wealth redistribution using the tax code.
Think about it.
tks for that link…..Diana. As a serial info. geek…. good info.
Welcome Pardu. Fascinating information there. If your into info (as I am) you’ll also like this one from NASA – the spinoff database: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/spinoff/database
You can search for all kinds of products that our taxes paid the private sector to create than ended up being manufactured and sold by them to us. It’s come a long way since Tang! check out MRI – you can thank NASA (and the taxpayers) for developing this diagnostic tool. And, of course, GPS was paid for by with our tax dollars, as well.
We pay for the R&D and then ultimately we’re able to utilize some of these inventions and work at the companies who manufacture them or as end users for other businesses….the list goes on and on. My biggest problem with this is, however, that we do not enforce the Bayh-Dole Act. This legislation was enacted so the government (yes, that big old bad government) could step in a set prices on these products our tax dollars paid to develop. But we don’t – so all the companies who end up selling/manufacturing these products (include big Pharma) benefit greatly from the profits they reap at our expense. And we often end up paying exorbitant prices for something our tax dollars paid to develop.
GOT IT… “Have link, will travel”