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RADIO GUY: Is there any reason at all for an abortion?
SHARRON ANGLE: Not in my book.
RADIO GUY: So, in other words, rape and incest would not be something?
SHARRON ANGLE: You know, I’m a Christian, and I believe that God has a plan and a purpose for each one of our lives and that he can intercede in all kinds of situations and we need to have a little faith in many things.
So, in Angle’s little, little mind, God has a plan and if that plan involves you getting raped by your sick uncle then shut up and accept the ensuing pregnancy.
ME: Sharron…
SHARRON ANGLE: Yes, Mario?
ME: On behalf of every woman who has ever gotten pregnant by rape, FU and your perverted interpretation of faith.
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Think it should be up to the woman to have a baby or not and not up to the government. They don’t seem to take care of their own very well. Pregnancy derived from rape, insest should be a decision that the mother has to make and she should have the options open.
I’ve known victims of rape that have had their child and given them up for adoption. So there are many options, but they should not be controlled by Uncle Sam!
If god is a good god (as conservatives profer), god would not give us rape, insest, wars in the first place.
She makes me physically ill. The children born of incest are going to have developmental problems and then be a burden on the State…how does that make sense?
As known, MSM doesn’t typically broadcast these various factoids. If they did, there’d be no mainstreaming of extremism, and no GOP.
You’ll generally only find these many factoids on the Net.
As my friend Forest said, “…and guess what?”
The big cable companies want to control both speed and content on the Net. It’s Net Neutrality.
If they’re sucessful, you can kiss Mario, HuffPo, Kos, C&L, ALL OF ‘EM goodbye. The most pressing high-priority issue for us is Net Neutrality. If we lose this, than all other issues are lost as well.
Please read the following if you want more insight into the children of rape. I have corresponded for several years with a young man from Rwanda, who will soon graduate from the National University of that country as a doctor.
This is the subject that has caused me much anger with Christians. No one can explain to me how it is God’s plan that a child too young for sex in the first place, and by her own Father, even a stranger, becomes pregnant, and that little girl, is expected to carry a baby to term, even though her body is not meant to carry a child so young, and could very well die trying to give birth. That any woman would say that the victims should carry and have a child they didn’t ask for, didn’t want, and forced onto them by such a criminal action, is like giving that rapist more power over her, by continuing to victimize her. No, I never believed such a horrible thing as rape and incest was in God’s plan. I have had many accusations thrown my way because I am pro-choice for this very reason. I’ve had woman tell me they felt sorry for me, told me I was going to hell, etc… Well I didn’t care. I can’t stop seeing the suffering that this causes the victims. I will never believe that God has such plans that causes such pain and suffering.
Dear Janet … Thank you for your concern for women, you are correct in all you say. I find it interesting that Christianity is a constantly revolving religion and abortion was not considered murder until about the year 1700. During the dark ages abortion was considered a “sin” but a lesser sin than that of fornication, and then probably because it was often used to conceal the sin of fornication.
If we are to be a country truly tolerant of religious rights we must recognize that the Jewish Torah specifically says that an embryo is not a human but only a potential human. If the mother’s health is endangered abortion is an option. Most Rabbis will tell you this also includes the psychological health of the mother.
Those who truly want less government interference in their private lives should leave reproductive decisions up to the individuals involved and not turn them over to the state.
Should it really matter to our government what Christians think any more than it should matter what Buddhists or Hindus or Jews or Rastafarians think? The founding fathers did not declare this a country of any particular religion, actually quite the opposite. In their letters they cautioned against a government that would indorse or in any way favor any religious doctrine. Remember they left Europe so that they could get out from under the tyranny of a state sanctioned religion.
Is the trouble here that these people believe that their doctrine, whatever it might be, is the only one that is valid? Are Christians so sure that they have the complete and only handle on “TRUTH” or that they know best what is good for every other person in the country? When SHARRON ANGLE or anyone else who is running for or serving in public office says: You know, I’m a Christian, and I believe that God has a plan… all I see is someone who is both ignorant and arrogant, who is either pandering to their base or wanting to run everyone’s life like a religious dictatorship.
The saddest thing of all might be that all the time they are on their little soap box begging for their “freedom” they are working to take away freedom from anyone who doesn’t view the world from their very narrow point of view.
If you are against it fine, no problem … doesn’t bother me one bit. Thats what you believe. As silly as it might be, you believe that and that is ok in this country.
What is not ok is for you to push those beliefs on someone else. Not every religion follows your views. Some religions believe that cows are sacred, so does that mean we should outlaw eating beef ? Of course not, thats just silly.
The same thing goes for gay marriage. You have a problem with it, so what. You are more then welcome to not marry homosexuals in your church. But its not ok to tell another church what they can or can’t do.
” The children born of incest are going to have developmental problems and then be a burden on the State…how does that make sense?”
I know right? I can’t understand why the state allows any children to be born with developmental problems. Hopefully, now that we have Obamacare the government will step in and stop these burdens from daring to be born at all.
Ah, but the esteemed Dr. David Barton and his esteemed colleague Mr. Glenn Beck both maintain that the Founding Fathers did indeed intentionally create a nation on religious principles, and their idiot listeners aren’t bright enough to see through the bullshit.
Given that these two quacks reach millions of gullible morons daily, and we are lucky to reach but a few score, who do you think is going to win the argument? (HINT: Look at the Texas school boards recent decisions on textbooks).
It’s simple really. She thinks that abortion is unjustified murder (more properly just ‘murder’ really since justified killing is not murder e.g. self defense – but I’ll use that phase to avoid any confusion) and that unjustified murder cannot be excused, even for something terrible like rape or murder.
To her there’s probably an ugly irony in that the typical Progressive would fully support killing a full term fetus that was the result of rape or incest, but would scream bloody murder if a rapist-murderer was given the death penalty.
So much sadness and suffering inflicted on so many people in the name of an imaginary super-being. In 300 years time we’ll look back at these debates and wonder how so many people could have still been so naive in the 21st century. We have not progressed from ancient beliefs in sun gods, witches and unicorns. We are still living in the Dark Ages and innocent people are still being victimized in the name of religion.
Amazed, “She thinks that abortion is unjustified murder”.
“Thinks” being the operative word. Do you believe that we should make laws based on what some of our people think to be true? If so I have some serious thinking to do. Í will let you know when I have a final draft on the new rules.
BTW your last paragraph is …well I will leave that for now.
Amazed, not all folks that support choice, thinks like you. Your words concerning developmental disabled born children I’m thinking you include Parent’s that want to keep their disabled children, and I find that to be based on a lack of compassion for the disabled. Children born to Parent(s) that want them, is a whole different matter. The healthcare reform plan has not a darn thing to do with abortion of disabled children unless it’s the result of a child and or woman, that were raped and impregnated, and their lives are at stake because of that and should be given the choice for abortion, if they so choose. Maybe I misunderstand, but your words as I understand them are upsetting.
dinamic72: yes you do have some thinking to do. I wish more Progressives would follow your lead.
Can you name a law that isn’t based on opinion? Infanticide was ‘legal’ in something like 99% of the planet. Christians made laws against it and even forced those laws on unwilling civilizations because they had the opinion that it was wrong. (ironically, it was usually justified by citing the parents’ poverty or the child’s burdensome ‘developmental problems’, deformaties or other ‘weaknesses’)
What have you done?
It’s only your ‘opinion’ that full term fetuses are not human. Or worse yet, you aren’t sure but still have the ‘opinion’ that it’s okay to kill them.
BTW, regarding my last paragraph of my previous post. Poetry in it’s accuracy and insight right?
Janet: the child’s certain ‘developmental problems’ being a burden on the State was used by Janine as a reason for why children from incestuous rape should clearly be terminated as fetuses.
It’s a stupid reason, with no thought behind it, and I was trying to point that out.
Amazed, thank you for clearing that up for me. I apologize for misunderstanding, and I haven”t read all the post yet.
Things are very off with this blog and twitter today. Some of the post’s in my email are not showing up, which is better then getting this forbidden zone that keeps showing up when I link up. I might try again tonight to see catch up on all the post’s.
“God has a plan and a purpose for each one of our lives and he can intercede in all kinds of situations and we need to have a little faith in many things.”
If this is the case, why can’t we have faith that God will intercede as necessary in a mother’s decision whether to carry a child to term or have an abortion? If his plan includes a purpose for something as horrible as rape, shouldn’t it also include a purpose for abortions as well? It seems to me that she’s saying that God abhors abortion in all cases but rape is okay sometimes…
Amazed asked, “Can you think of a law that isn’t based on opinion.” Well, actually I can think of ten right off the top of my head.
“Infantcide was ‘legal’ in something like 99% of the planet.” I dare you to back that statistic up with any reputable published data. But did you know that there is no, not one, reference in the bible to abortion. There is however a lot of reference to the fact that a child under 1 year old is not alive and of no consquence if killed. That’s the Christian Bible I am referring to btw.
I have a question now. If a pregnant woman goes horseback riding or does some other behavior that results in a miscarriage, is that murder? At what point do we put the needs of the mother on as high a level as we put the value of a fertilized egg?
Until an embryo can exist outside the womb it is not a person.
Amazed you said: It’s only your ‘opinion’ that full term fetuses are not human. Or worse yet, you aren’t sure, but still have the ‘opinion’ that it’s okay to kill them. ”
Did I write any of that? I think that you might want to reread what I did say before you give your kneejerk reaction. I said nothing about killing full term fetuses, nothing at all. Infanticide was never part of this conversation until you went off with your assumptions of what you think I meant, by what I did say.
I do believe in choice of the mother.
Finally I thought that we were having a conversation, a debate about Sharron Angle’s opinions and her run for U.S. senate. How did we move so quickly into accusations and personal attacks? (rhetorical)
dinamic72: what kneejerk reaction? You believe in the choice of the mother to terminate the fetus. That’s a given. As to whether the fetus is fully human, you either believe that it’s not, or that it is, or you aren’t sure.
They are all still opinions.
But if you think it is fully human, or if you aren’t sure, then it would be pretty disturbing if you still thought termination on demand was okay.
It could only be justified if your opinion was that the fetus was not fully human.
Finally, there was no debate about Sharon Angle’s opinions. The blogger and the posters simply made shit up.
TheCloudancer: Honestly, what is it with Progressives and their tendency to simply make shit up?
“there is however a lot of reference to the fact that a child under 1 year old is not alive and of no consquence if killed. That’s the Christian Bible I am referring to btw.”
This should be simple for you. Especially since you claim that there are lots. Book chapter:verse.
Simple. (unless of course you made that up… no wait, you did didn’t you? You made that shit up. You didn’t even read it on some freakazoid blog page, you just went ahead and made it up. Progressives are awesome, they never let a lack of facts slow them down)
As for infanticide… well.. you can read right? Try the ‘internet’. it’s this new fangled thing with lots of information on it. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
(oh no, Wikipedia, that bastion of conservative Christian thought!)
PS, this part was great:
“The pre-Islamic Arabian society practiced infanticide as a form of “post-partum birth control” ”
TheCloudancer you said “Until an embryo can exist outside the womb it is not a person.”
I thought that you Progressives gave up on that argument (along with the “kill the retarted babies” one) after premies started surviving (with alot of help) at as early as 21 weeks.
Get with the times. Actually, just make shit up, at least them someone might believe you. (well… other Progressives at least)
If you want biblical evidence for infanticide and abortion, how about this:
Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
Amazed. You appear to have a problem with women having the right to abort, so here’s a hypothetical for you. The Roberts’ court repeals Roe v. Wade and abortion becomes illegal. A 16 year old finds herself pregnant and gets an abortion in some back alley. What would you like see happen to her in the eyes of the law?
Wow, all the post’s have come up now.
What a different light I see.
I’m not going to direct this to anyone, and just say, that the disabled child is only a burden to those that can’t handle people with special needs. Some Parent’s are just very compassionate, can and do have the ability to have and raise up a child with developmental disabilities. Look at the Special Olympics. They teach most folks that will never know what that is like, the true understanding of compassion.
I don’t understand how a fetus inside the womb in all stages is not considered a human. The fetus means, and is a baby, embryo, means baby. Whatever baby is in a womb is life, I don’t dispute that, but I will never agree that it’s the government, or any person(s) that would be against pro-choice for rape and incest victims the power to become involved in a decisions of this matter, other then to protect the victims right to choice. These females were not given a choice to not be hurt like that. They did not choose to be raped, they did not choose to become pregnant, they were not given a choice. They are the victims of a serious life altering crime. It can be a lifetime of pain and suffering for the female victim, and is just as wrong to force them to continue that way. It’s as if the pregnant girl/woman is not important in the whole situation because now there is a baby involved. Such crimes never afflict the man responsible, as the female is the only human that becomes pregnant in the crime of rape. The crime continues on and on. And we are just suppose to sit back and tell these victims because there is now a baby in their womb, forget about the pain to their bodies from the physical, violent aspects of the rape, the pain of humiliation, the pain of sorrow forever in their minds, nothing else matters. It’s NOT God’s plan. I don’t believe it.
luca: You mean like she wasn’t watching where she was going, tripped over a rock, got up and found she was pregnant?
I’m not sure about the 16 year old. Suicide is illegal but I wouldn’t want a person who attempted suicide to be punished. As for the person who performed the back alley abortion? I dunno, maybe the same a doctor who ‘cures’ an apotemnophilia by removing a large limb.
apotemnophilia is a choice. Their body, their choice, and all that, but the doctor would spend quite a bit of time in jail for treating that problem with that cure.
E.A. Blair: It’s strange, there are lots of disturbing things in the bible, especially the Old Testament, but none of the ones you cite actually mentions abortion. Killings? Yes. Miscarriages? Yes. Abortion? Not even close. That’s the best you can do? Again, Progressives making shit up.
And please, don’t try to shock anyone with images of God killing or ordering others to be killed. To say that that is old is a bit of an understatement. It’s been written down for all to see for like a few thousand years. What did you think the story of Noah was about? Rainbows? Unicorns? A rained out birthday party? What about ‘pass over’? A kite festival? People died dude. Lots of fucking people died.
That’s right Amazed, we made it all up. This is like trying to talk to a very small child or that funny SNL character Gilda Radner played so well. But truthfully, when someones mind is that closed it just isn’t worth the time.
I live in Melbourne, Victoria, which recently legalised abortion up to 24 weeks with very little obstacle. Later-term abortions (25 weeks and onwards) require the considered medical opinion of two separate doctors.
This gives the mother much greater control over her own body, and her reproductive rights.
The legalisation debate had just as many heated opponents, and I thought the terminology was quite interesting. Anti-abortionists call themselves “pro-life” (the inference being that those in favour of legal abortion are anti-life), but let’s call it what it is: “anti-choice”, or “anti-freedom”.
Don’t get me wrong, I do NOT advocate abortion as a first-choice in contraception, nor do I advocate unsafe sex. But I am absolutely livid that anyone would try to take away my legal right to control whether I bring a child conceive through rape, or a child I cannot care for, or a child who will be born with a debilitating, painful condition that will cut their life short and rob what few years they have of any real quality… How dare anyone rob me of the right to choose whether to bring such a child into the world?
I feel deeply for any girl or woman facing that choice, and all I hope is that whatever she decides, it is a choice she is free to make, with the support of her loved ones and her society’s laws. Anything else is a gross violation of basic human rights.
TheCloudancer: excellent rebuttal. Case closed I guess.
…
No wait! You are a poopie head!
There. Do I win the argument now? Name calling wins arguments right?
Unless you, or “Science!” can prove that the fetus is not a human, then there really should not be an argument. If you don’t have proof but still are willing to allow hundreds of thousands of possible humans to be ‘legally’ killed every year, all on the justification of “but what about rape!” then just say so.
If however you have the proof that the fetus is not human, then yes, there should also be no argument. If it’s not human, then it has no more value than any other lump of flesh. Just give the proof.
Amazed, to what “value” do you place on the victim of rape, the victim of incest? Woman that can’t possibly take care of a special needs child, or can even carry a fetus to full term because of illness, or any range of reasons why a female can’t carry a baby to full term. Even if we except that argument that the unborn are not human, and I think they are, but I still feel that choice is more important then forcing YOUR WILL onto a girl/woman, what she should do with her OWN body when it is none of your BUSINESS, least of all the governments. Not everyone believes in God, but we are suppose to impose our will onto victims of a crime, or an unwillingness to have and raise up an unwanted baby because your beliefs are much more important?
It’s estimated that at least 25% of all fertilized human eggs miscarry (i.e., spontaneously abort), and that the figure may be higher because of spontaneous abortions that occur before the women affected even know they are pregnant. That would make god the #1 abortionist in the world.
Amazed, I’d reply to your rants, but you’re not worth the effort of typing.
There are some people here who does not even read the BIBLE, there are many examples there that God allow sufferings for some purpose. Try to read BIBLE first.
The “God’s plan argument” is a logical fallacy. Assuming there is a “God” with a “plan”, there is no way to know whether “His plan” was for ANY pregnancy to be brought to term or terminated or miscarried etc. Perhaps many conceptions happen simply to be terminated as some sort of emotional test for the mother to overcome. The same way an innocent person can be murdered in “God’s plan”, so can a fetus be terminated in “God’s plan”. To claim “God’s plan” as an argument to condemn or support any action whatsoever is to claim infinite knowledge of the universe and makes you an idiot.
The Bi-Bull is a book that has been translated and translated and then translated again. The meaning of the words often at the whim of the translator. I actually have read the Bi-Bull and it has some wonderful parables in it, some teachings by different men, and some cautionary tales. I am of the opinion that the translations, by men in power, fit the social mores of the times in which they lived.
Conservatives are worried about abortion and killing a human being when all throughout time, so so many battles and murders have been committed in the name of the god of each group’s choice, and it is still happening. Think they should regroup and start accepting each religion and each belief with respect and act in “the” godly manner of their choice.
E.A. Blair: miscarriage equals abortion? I’ve read that before, but I didn’t actually think anyone was thick enough to take it seriously.
It would be like saying that natural death equals murder. (“studies show that 75% of all adults die natural deaths. Nature is the world’s biggest murderer. Murder should be legal. This is retarded.”)
You either knew that when you were typing it, or you are very very stupid person.
Janine: I have an 8 year niece who likes to say that she read War and Peace, when in fact all she did was skim and read a paragraph here and there without understanding most of what she read, or even many of the words (it started as a joke when her dad saw her looking at it, “my daughter is a genius!”). Her brother likes to say that he’s the Hulk. Both of them will eventually grow out of saying silly things that everyone knows is untrue. Perhaps you will too one day.(did you by any chance read War and Peace on the say day that you read your bi-bull).
As for the translations of translations, fortunately for you the original languages (mostly Greek and Hebrew) are still available for you to refer to. Not that you will, that would be admitting you’re wrong. (which, as a Progressive, you are probably wont to do)
If one is truly Pro-Life they cannot believe in capital punishment, they cannot believe in war for any reason, they cannot stand by and allow hunger and abuse and poverty and any form of human suffering. If they do not feel this way then they are simply anti-abortionist and hypocrits. If you call yourself Pro-Life and you do not fit the above you are lying to us and yourself.
As for Amazed, E.A. Blair answered quite nicely before I even saw your post so why bother. Blair also said pretty much what I think, it’s simply not worth my time to reply.
Cloudancer, you pretty much said about all I have left to say on the subject. I also say you can’t claim to be pro-life if all you care about is the fetus and you don’t give crap about the kid once it’s born, as so many anti-abortionists seem to do.
As for reading the bible, I have access to a scholar who can read it in its original languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and New Testament Greek. I find that the further away I get from bibe-based religion, the better I understand the book that fuels it and the more I understand it the less I like it.
E.A.,
Ditto. Fantasy based on fantasy is no way to make an argument about anything.
Those who rely on “faith” for their arguments quite typically become misologists; mistrusting reason, and then progressing into a fear of rational argument.
Why? I suspect because facts threaten their life-long and closely-held narrative or meme, and they aren’t likely to give it up easily, no matter how superstitious it is revealed to be.
It sounds like your intellectual quest will lead you to The Freedom From Religion Foudation.
And if it does, welcome aboard.
TheCloudancer and E.A. Blair: nice circle jerk boys. Neither of you have said anything, but both rely on what the other said. Progressives really are awesome. They are like dealing with children who have no understanding of logic, reason or really any critical thinking. Like eternally ignorant teenagers for whom everyone else are idiots.
For instance, confusing justified killing (e.g. self defense or capital punishment or even national defence) with murder. If you can’t see that sometimes killing can be justified, then you are being purposefully ignorant (Surprise!).
If you can’t tell the difference between justified killing and unjustified killing (i.e. murder) then you are frightening.
As to your concern about pro-lifers being pro-death penalty: It always makes me laugh when some Pro-choicer is against the death penalty. It’s only state murder if the person being killed has raped and killed someone? But if they are innocent, then no worries?
You: save the pedophile rapist murders, kill the babies (or ‘probably’ not human fetus’ anyways).
Me: kill the pedophile rapist murders, save the babies.
Who’s more consistent again?
Again, for the terminally slow (I’m looking at you Blair and Cloudy) there really should not be any argument here. If you can prove that the fetus is not fully human, then by all means shred that pesky lump of flesh. If you can’t prove that it’s not fully human then you are saying that you are okay with killing hundreds of thousands of possible babies which, again, would be truly frightening (and very Progressive).
The whole “rape!” and “incest!” thing is simply a red herring. Not only are the cases of pregnancy resulting from those terrible acts pretty rare (i.e. compared the number of abortions) but even if the the proposal was to ban general abortions but to allow them in cases of rape, incest, physical danger to the mother or sever birth defects, the Progressive mind will still argue for full choice. There doesn’t have to be ANY reason, just personal choice, and that’s why rape and incest are just red herrings.
A quick thought game (Blair and Dancer, not that you’re simple minded or anything, but I would recommend not playing as you will not do well (i.e. it’s a ‘thought’ game and you’re at an automatic disadvantage)):
Q: at what point is it wrong to kill the baby? include reasoning and data points that you used to reach your conclusion. extra points for consistency.
I’ll start you off with some suggestions:
1. up to 1 year after birth?
2. up to 6 months after birth?
3. the day after birth?
4. after the first breath?
5. crowning?
6. full term?
7. brain function?
8. heart function?
9. point at with 50% of premature babies survive for a year?
10. 10% survival?
11. examples of some demonstrated survivals?
12. a single example?
Saw this on the Digg thread for this post. It’s a good question.
If God can do anything, then why does his plan involve fucking us over every chance he gets?
If the suffering of billions is all part of ‘His Plan’ it means the end justifies the means.
Why does God even need a master plan? Is he supposed to be some kind of comic book super-villain?
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Can someone explain to me WTF is a “progressive”? By dictionary definition 1 it would me “forward moving, advancing. Politically it means “Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods”. That sounds pretty good to me so why does Amazed make it sound wrong. I think I like being a “progressive” even though I am a hardline fiscal conservative, NRA member and Vietnam Veteran that is more Pro-Death then Pro-Life I’m going to take it as a compliment.
Cloudancer … I also am a Vietnam era vet (8 years in and around Southeast and Northeast Asia) and am a staunch fiscal conservative although I am left of center on almost all social issues. I am proud when I hear someone call me a “progressive” even if, in their tiny little brain, they mean it as an insult.
Charlie, Welcome home! I would tend to agree with you on social issues. Illiterate Fundies tend to rant and rave against abortion then rant even louder about Aid to Dependent Children and medicade that is so necessary to care for the children. They don’t want to pay for public education or school meals in poor neighborhoods. I’ve been paying into Social Security since 1962 and congress has been using it and replacing it with IOU’s. Now these idiots are saying SS is an entitlement program. We pay unemployment out of our wages so we will have something to help if we are unemployed. How dare anyone say that is entitlement. We are entitled to it because we paid for it.
I paid over $70,000 in income tax last year. For that kind of money I expect to drive on decent roads, cross rivers on safe bridges (I crossed the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis a couple days before it collapsed), buy properly inspected food at the grocery store and have my oil pumped out of the ground safely. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on useless Cheney revenge wars and private industry bailouts. Is that to much to expect?
SHARRON ANGLE is an idiot.
Why? Because all the Tea baggers are idiots by clear demonstration. They want their taxes lowered but they don’t want to give anything up (“Keep yer guvment hands off my Social Security”).
Most of them still want to be embroiled in expensive foreign wars that were never paid for or sacrificed for by the hawks who got us into them. They are protesting Obama raising their taxes when 95% of us have had our taxes lowered by his administration. The IRS announced that they have the lowest amount coming in this year they have had since the 40s.
The Teabaggers are nothing more than racist zombies – the undead. They are ready to be programmed by zombieMasters like Sarah Palin without a thought in their heads. People who follow Palin because they like her politics are truly bereft of judgement. Palin is a political whore who will follow the paycheck wherever it may lead. She as hollow as a candyless pinata.
Amazed, you are obviously a man. Stop telling women what to do with their bodies. When you get a uterus you can decide what to do with it.
Love your stuff Mario,Cheers
The thing that bothers me most about the abortion issue is that it never gets resolved and it is a distraction from very real problems that need our immediate attention.
Bravo, Alpha. I couldn’t agree more. The day Roe-v-Wade is overturned is the day the ultra conservatives will effectively rally the rest of us to real, serious political strength. They can try to stack the high court, but if they succeed they will shoot themselves in the foot. Middle America will see that the right is finally, truly out of control.
Hey Amazed,
For being such an opinionated critic, you have a surprisingly poor grasp of proper terminology. It is the quality of being a person, an entity entitled to protection from and subject to the law, that the fetus lacks. It is your burden of proof to illustrate that the fetus deserves the designation.
Why do you all say God is at fault? God is Love. Satan is your enemy. Satan is the one who brings misery and all things awful, lustful, selfish, you name it and he’s behind it. God allows man to choose. Will man choose wickedness? Or will he choose God and follow his voice?
It is up to us. Do not blame God.
Sorry about the mini sermon but I have the truth. I have freedom from all the bondage. I have a way to escape the terriblness. A way of love, trust, and real happiness.
“I can’t change the world but I can make a difference.”
Thank you for the sermon, Liz. I am glad you are happy with your God.
My God, UnicornEasterbunny brings me hours of joy just like yours. I only wish he would define wickedness like your God. It would make things much easier for the baby killers.
Or… Maybe we just let the law decide whether it is better to have girls being butchered in back alleys like it used to be, or act like the other civilized countries of the world and make abortion legal, while trying to minimize the procedures in any way possible.
We waste precious resources arguing with irrational people.
If we could rationalize with religious people, there would be no religious people.
Time to move on??
I don’t want to question your intelligence, but you do realize that when you said “Bravo, Alpha. I couldn’t agree more” you were agreeing with his/her comment about abortion being a non-issue right? Which was strange for you to agree with and then follow up with your opinion that Roe-vs-Wade being overturned would “effectively rally the rest of us to real, serious political strength.” Do all Liberals get so worked up about simple distractions?
At least when you called Cloudancer an ” idiot by clear demonstration” for his view that SS was not an entitlement benefit that you could reduce as a way to cut expenses you didn’t first agree with him. (no worries though, even though your comment on the tea baggers was right after his, I’m pretty sure that he didn’t connect the two)
Liberal Progressives. You gotta love their logic and reasoning skills and the consistency of their ideas. Not as a group mind you, but at least individually. Or at least individually for specific issues. Oh shit, at least they know if they like vanilla ice cream. Or maybe not.
You may enjoy putting word and intention into the mouthes and minds of others, but in the particular case of me, I only say one thing: Step up.
You are polluted with the arrogance of Glen Beck and the other leaders of your failed party.
You are quick to question the intelligence of others who disagree with you. Look in the mirror – that is where the ignorance exists. Not in the slicing and dicing of semantics on liberal websites. Go back to the Free Republic. They will gladly hoist you onto their shoulders and hail you as a hero. A hero among ignoramuses.
OC Liberal: “putting word and intention into the mouthes and minds of others”
OC, you continue to leave me Amazed. I did neither. However, I have no doubt that you missed the irony of your comment considering that this whole blog posting started with the the blogger and most of the commenter’s doing exactly that about what Sharron Angle said and thought.
Back to you, so, do you, or don’t you, agree with Alpha’s statement that abortion is a non-issue/distraction? And do you or don’t you agree with your own statement that Roe-v-Wade is so important that it would rally ‘the rest of us’?
“A hero among ignoramuses.”
I love arguing with liberals. Facts are never their strong points.
Amazed: Yes, you win. I have seen the error of my ways. To be called a Libtard was the final determining factor.
I now understand. Sharon Angel and Rush and that nice Mr. Beck… Sarah Palin, all the nice folks at FOX News, George Bush… Well, must I go on? These are the intellectual thinkers of our time. The truth tellers. Did I leave out Turd Blossom? My bad.
FACTS, why did I not see it before? You have opened my eyes. I once was blind, but now I see!! Why don’t liberals look at the facts?? Like the crapload of nuclear weapons we found in Iraq. Remember all those mushroom clouds. I’m glad we stopped those thermal nuclear detonations all over the mid East. Or the close relationship Sadam had with those 9/11 terrorist organizations. Heck we sure got to the bottom of the FACTS there. Or even the more recent Death Panels, THANK YOU QUEEN SARAH! That smart Mr. Barton from Texas. Who would step in to enlighten us about the abuses perpetrated against friendly oil companies like BP if we didn’t have TRUTH tellers from the vast spectrum of the political right?
It truly is the Libtards who can’t seem to find the truth.
And just one more thing. I know you find yourself to be REALLY smart, and I have no doubt your family tells you all the time, but just saying libtards like me can’t see the truth because it contradicts your particular world view does not make it so. Yes, I called teabaggers idiots (Martini involved). That is not really my style. But to many of us Progressives, we are up to here with their BS.
I will gladly use facts to make my point. The point you are trying to make, that I was inconsistent is an incorrect analysis on your part. I agree that abortion should be a non-issue because it doesn’t get resolved and it has been decided by the Supremes. That is consistent with my opinion that if the right wingers got the high court stack one day and overturned Roe-v-Wade, it would wake up the majority (who believe it should be a women’s choice) to just how bat sh#t out of control the right wingers are. It would push the pendulum back in a more moderate direction. Yes, I think our political leaders are MORE conservative than the majority of Americans, especially on certain issues.
“I now understand. Sharon Angel and Rush and that nice Mr. Beck… Sarah Palin, all the nice folks at FOX News, George Bush… Well, must I go on? These are the intellectual thinkers of our time. The truth tellers. Did I leave out Turd Blossom? My bad.”
Oooooo… names. Don’t forget the whiz kids at MSNBC, CNN, or ABC. Or personalities like Keith Olbermann, Sean Penn, Dan Rather, or that tight little Rachel Maddow. These are the cream of the Progressive intellectuals.
(do you remember when that high school drop out actress called Bush a retard and then shut the fuck up when a comparison between their educations and accomplishment was brought up? You know Bush’s IQ is estimated at about 130 right (above average)? Obama’s at about 115 (average). But Barry just sounds so durn smart! – except the the teleprompter is broken)
Do you remember that nearly EVERY SINGLE intelligence agency in the world thought that Saddam had an active WMD program? Have you read the Saddam purposefully perpetuated that myth to appear stronger than he was?
Sarah Palin an intellectual thinker???? Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
George Bush’s IQ is estimated at 125 while Obama’s is estimated at between 130 & 165.
Bush’s college grades were mostly Cs while Obama graduated from the Harvard Law School Magna cum Laude.
Bush can’t even speak English well, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Wow … What an intellect George had.
Sorry Janine, My reply also adds nothing to the thread.
I guess you just said it all. If you think your guys are smarter then God bless you. There is really no debating what you already have figured out. Maybe your time would be better spent on Sarah Palin’s Facebook page.
I only hope the twisted dystopian world envisioned by your band of intellectuals never comes to pass. It would make George Orwell’s vision look like Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood.
For the record, I would hold up the journalistic acumen of any of the people you mentioned as a great example. Rachel Maddow can hold her own with anybody out there and often does. She doesn’t shy away from debate with any of your “smart” conservatives, they just wouldn’t dare try to step up to her. Yes, she is very smart and articulate, not to mention something your examples NEVER are: FAIR. She gives people she disagrees with a chance to state their case and then uses her substantial knowledge and communication skills to state her point of view. All without engaging in Ad hominem attacks for the sake of juvenile entertainment. None of the people I mentioned have the balls or ability to do that.
Sean Penn was in a boat pulling people out of the stinking water after Katrina days before the brilliant Mr. Bush lifted a finger.
And if you really think we attacked Iraq because the Bush administration thought there were WMDs, then naive is the kindest word I can use in describing you. Drink the Kool-Aid, dude.
[...] of the GOP have savagely screwed the unemployed, protected the bankstas, trashed Thurgood Marshall, implied rape and incest is part of God’s plan, defended BP, threatened to either end social security [...]
[...] Loon award both of you have been battling over for so long now. Following her comments on rape (it’s all part of God’s plan) she follows up with this. “The tenet of the separation of church and state is an [...]
[...] Loon award both of you have been battling over for so long now. Following her comments on rape (it’s all part of God’s plan) she follows up with this. “The tenet of the separation of church and state is an [...]
Think it should be up to the woman to have a baby or not and not up to the government. They don’t seem to take care of their own very well. Pregnancy derived from rape, insest should be a decision that the mother has to make and she should have the options open.
I’ve known victims of rape that have had their child and given them up for adoption. So there are many options, but they should not be controlled by Uncle Sam!
If god is a good god (as conservatives profer), god would not give us rape, insest, wars in the first place.
She makes me physically ill. The children born of incest are going to have developmental problems and then be a burden on the State…how does that make sense?
Totally agree with you janine. Good point.
As known, MSM doesn’t typically broadcast these various factoids. If they did, there’d be no mainstreaming of extremism, and no GOP.
You’ll generally only find these many factoids on the Net.
As my friend Forest said, “…and guess what?”
The big cable companies want to control both speed and content on the Net. It’s Net Neutrality.
If they’re sucessful, you can kiss Mario, HuffPo, Kos, C&L, ALL OF ‘EM goodbye. The most pressing high-priority issue for us is Net Neutrality. If we lose this, than all other issues are lost as well.
Please read the following if you want more insight into the children of rape. I have corresponded for several years with a young man from Rwanda, who will soon graduate from the National University of that country as a doctor.
http://www.slate.com/id/2219840
Thanks for the link Charlie. Very interesting read.
This is the subject that has caused me much anger with Christians. No one can explain to me how it is God’s plan that a child too young for sex in the first place, and by her own Father, even a stranger, becomes pregnant, and that little girl, is expected to carry a baby to term, even though her body is not meant to carry a child so young, and could very well die trying to give birth. That any woman would say that the victims should carry and have a child they didn’t ask for, didn’t want, and forced onto them by such a criminal action, is like giving that rapist more power over her, by continuing to victimize her. No, I never believed such a horrible thing as rape and incest was in God’s plan. I have had many accusations thrown my way because I am pro-choice for this very reason. I’ve had woman tell me they felt sorry for me, told me I was going to hell, etc… Well I didn’t care. I can’t stop seeing the suffering that this causes the victims. I will never believe that God has such plans that causes such pain and suffering.
Dear Janet … Thank you for your concern for women, you are correct in all you say. I find it interesting that Christianity is a constantly revolving religion and abortion was not considered murder until about the year 1700. During the dark ages abortion was considered a “sin” but a lesser sin than that of fornication, and then probably because it was often used to conceal the sin of fornication.
If we are to be a country truly tolerant of religious rights we must recognize that the Jewish Torah specifically says that an embryo is not a human but only a potential human. If the mother’s health is endangered abortion is an option. Most Rabbis will tell you this also includes the psychological health of the mother.
Those who truly want less government interference in their private lives should leave reproductive decisions up to the individuals involved and not turn them over to the state.
Should it really matter to our government what Christians think any more than it should matter what Buddhists or Hindus or Jews or Rastafarians think? The founding fathers did not declare this a country of any particular religion, actually quite the opposite. In their letters they cautioned against a government that would indorse or in any way favor any religious doctrine. Remember they left Europe so that they could get out from under the tyranny of a state sanctioned religion.
Is the trouble here that these people believe that their doctrine, whatever it might be, is the only one that is valid? Are Christians so sure that they have the complete and only handle on “TRUTH” or that they know best what is good for every other person in the country? When SHARRON ANGLE or anyone else who is running for or serving in public office says: You know, I’m a Christian, and I believe that God has a plan… all I see is someone who is both ignorant and arrogant, who is either pandering to their base or wanting to run everyone’s life like a religious dictatorship.
The saddest thing of all might be that all the time they are on their little soap box begging for their “freedom” they are working to take away freedom from anyone who doesn’t view the world from their very narrow point of view.
She should have been aborted.
If you are against it fine, no problem … doesn’t bother me one bit. Thats what you believe. As silly as it might be, you believe that and that is ok in this country.
What is not ok is for you to push those beliefs on someone else. Not every religion follows your views. Some religions believe that cows are sacred, so does that mean we should outlaw eating beef ? Of course not, thats just silly.
The same thing goes for gay marriage. You have a problem with it, so what. You are more then welcome to not marry homosexuals in your church. But its not ok to tell another church what they can or can’t do.
” The children born of incest are going to have developmental problems and then be a burden on the State…how does that make sense?”
I know right? I can’t understand why the state allows any children to be born with developmental problems. Hopefully, now that we have Obamacare the government will step in and stop these burdens from daring to be born at all.
Ah, but the esteemed Dr. David Barton and his esteemed colleague Mr. Glenn Beck both maintain that the Founding Fathers did indeed intentionally create a nation on religious principles, and their idiot listeners aren’t bright enough to see through the bullshit.
Given that these two quacks reach millions of gullible morons daily, and we are lucky to reach but a few score, who do you think is going to win the argument? (HINT: Look at the Texas school boards recent decisions on textbooks).
It’s simple really. She thinks that abortion is unjustified murder (more properly just ‘murder’ really since justified killing is not murder e.g. self defense – but I’ll use that phase to avoid any confusion) and that unjustified murder cannot be excused, even for something terrible like rape or murder.
To her there’s probably an ugly irony in that the typical Progressive would fully support killing a full term fetus that was the result of rape or incest, but would scream bloody murder if a rapist-murderer was given the death penalty.
So much sadness and suffering inflicted on so many people in the name of an imaginary super-being. In 300 years time we’ll look back at these debates and wonder how so many people could have still been so naive in the 21st century. We have not progressed from ancient beliefs in sun gods, witches and unicorns. We are still living in the Dark Ages and innocent people are still being victimized in the name of religion.
Amazed, “She thinks that abortion is unjustified murder”.
“Thinks” being the operative word. Do you believe that we should make laws based on what some of our people think to be true? If so I have some serious thinking to do. Í will let you know when I have a final draft on the new rules.
BTW your last paragraph is …well I will leave that for now.
Amazed, not all folks that support choice, thinks like you. Your words concerning developmental disabled born children I’m thinking you include Parent’s that want to keep their disabled children, and I find that to be based on a lack of compassion for the disabled. Children born to Parent(s) that want them, is a whole different matter. The healthcare reform plan has not a darn thing to do with abortion of disabled children unless it’s the result of a child and or woman, that were raped and impregnated, and their lives are at stake because of that and should be given the choice for abortion, if they so choose. Maybe I misunderstand, but your words as I understand them are upsetting.
dinamic72: yes you do have some thinking to do. I wish more Progressives would follow your lead.
Can you name a law that isn’t based on opinion? Infanticide was ‘legal’ in something like 99% of the planet. Christians made laws against it and even forced those laws on unwilling civilizations because they had the opinion that it was wrong. (ironically, it was usually justified by citing the parents’ poverty or the child’s burdensome ‘developmental problems’, deformaties or other ‘weaknesses’)
What have you done?
It’s only your ‘opinion’ that full term fetuses are not human. Or worse yet, you aren’t sure but still have the ‘opinion’ that it’s okay to kill them.
BTW, regarding my last paragraph of my previous post. Poetry in it’s accuracy and insight right?
Janet: the child’s certain ‘developmental problems’ being a burden on the State was used by Janine as a reason for why children from incestuous rape should clearly be terminated as fetuses.
It’s a stupid reason, with no thought behind it, and I was trying to point that out.
Amazed, thank you for clearing that up for me. I apologize for misunderstanding, and I haven”t read all the post yet.
Things are very off with this blog and twitter today. Some of the post’s in my email are not showing up, which is better then getting this forbidden zone that keeps showing up when I link up. I might try again tonight to see catch up on all the post’s.
“God has a plan and a purpose for each one of our lives and he can intercede in all kinds of situations and we need to have a little faith in many things.”
If this is the case, why can’t we have faith that God will intercede as necessary in a mother’s decision whether to carry a child to term or have an abortion? If his plan includes a purpose for something as horrible as rape, shouldn’t it also include a purpose for abortions as well? It seems to me that she’s saying that God abhors abortion in all cases but rape is okay sometimes…
Amazed asked, “Can you think of a law that isn’t based on opinion.” Well, actually I can think of ten right off the top of my head.
“Infantcide was ‘legal’ in something like 99% of the planet.” I dare you to back that statistic up with any reputable published data. But did you know that there is no, not one, reference in the bible to abortion. There is however a lot of reference to the fact that a child under 1 year old is not alive and of no consquence if killed. That’s the Christian Bible I am referring to btw.
I have a question now. If a pregnant woman goes horseback riding or does some other behavior that results in a miscarriage, is that murder? At what point do we put the needs of the mother on as high a level as we put the value of a fertilized egg?
Until an embryo can exist outside the womb it is not a person.
Amazed you said: It’s only your ‘opinion’ that full term fetuses are not human. Or worse yet, you aren’t sure, but still have the ‘opinion’ that it’s okay to kill them. ”
Did I write any of that? I think that you might want to reread what I did say before you give your kneejerk reaction. I said nothing about killing full term fetuses, nothing at all. Infanticide was never part of this conversation until you went off with your assumptions of what you think I meant, by what I did say.
I do believe in choice of the mother.
Finally I thought that we were having a conversation, a debate about Sharron Angle’s opinions and her run for U.S. senate. How did we move so quickly into accusations and personal attacks? (rhetorical)
But rape IS part of god’s plan. Read all about it: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
dinamic72: what kneejerk reaction? You believe in the choice of the mother to terminate the fetus. That’s a given. As to whether the fetus is fully human, you either believe that it’s not, or that it is, or you aren’t sure.
They are all still opinions.
But if you think it is fully human, or if you aren’t sure, then it would be pretty disturbing if you still thought termination on demand was okay.
It could only be justified if your opinion was that the fetus was not fully human.
Finally, there was no debate about Sharon Angle’s opinions. The blogger and the posters simply made shit up.
TheCloudancer: Honestly, what is it with Progressives and their tendency to simply make shit up?
“there is however a lot of reference to the fact that a child under 1 year old is not alive and of no consquence if killed. That’s the Christian Bible I am referring to btw.”
This should be simple for you. Especially since you claim that there are lots. Book chapter:verse.
Simple. (unless of course you made that up… no wait, you did didn’t you? You made that shit up. You didn’t even read it on some freakazoid blog page, you just went ahead and made it up. Progressives are awesome, they never let a lack of facts slow them down)
As for infanticide… well.. you can read right? Try the ‘internet’. it’s this new fangled thing with lots of information on it. You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
(oh no, Wikipedia, that bastion of conservative Christian thought!)
PS, this part was great:
“The pre-Islamic Arabian society practiced infanticide as a form of “post-partum birth control” ”
That’s awesome.
TheCloudancer you said “Until an embryo can exist outside the womb it is not a person.”
I thought that you Progressives gave up on that argument (along with the “kill the retarted babies” one) after premies started surviving (with alot of help) at as early as 21 weeks.
Get with the times. Actually, just make shit up, at least them someone might believe you. (well… other Progressives at least)
If you want biblical evidence for infanticide and abortion, how about this:
Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
Amazed. You appear to have a problem with women having the right to abort, so here’s a hypothetical for you. The Roberts’ court repeals Roe v. Wade and abortion becomes illegal. A 16 year old finds herself pregnant and gets an abortion in some back alley. What would you like see happen to her in the eyes of the law?
Wow, all the post’s have come up now.
What a different light I see.
I’m not going to direct this to anyone, and just say, that the disabled child is only a burden to those that can’t handle people with special needs. Some Parent’s are just very compassionate, can and do have the ability to have and raise up a child with developmental disabilities. Look at the Special Olympics. They teach most folks that will never know what that is like, the true understanding of compassion.
I don’t understand how a fetus inside the womb in all stages is not considered a human. The fetus means, and is a baby, embryo, means baby. Whatever baby is in a womb is life, I don’t dispute that, but I will never agree that it’s the government, or any person(s) that would be against pro-choice for rape and incest victims the power to become involved in a decisions of this matter, other then to protect the victims right to choice. These females were not given a choice to not be hurt like that. They did not choose to be raped, they did not choose to become pregnant, they were not given a choice. They are the victims of a serious life altering crime. It can be a lifetime of pain and suffering for the female victim, and is just as wrong to force them to continue that way. It’s as if the pregnant girl/woman is not important in the whole situation because now there is a baby involved. Such crimes never afflict the man responsible, as the female is the only human that becomes pregnant in the crime of rape. The crime continues on and on. And we are just suppose to sit back and tell these victims because there is now a baby in their womb, forget about the pain to their bodies from the physical, violent aspects of the rape, the pain of humiliation, the pain of sorrow forever in their minds, nothing else matters. It’s NOT God’s plan. I don’t believe it.
luca: You mean like she wasn’t watching where she was going, tripped over a rock, got up and found she was pregnant?
I’m not sure about the 16 year old. Suicide is illegal but I wouldn’t want a person who attempted suicide to be punished. As for the person who performed the back alley abortion? I dunno, maybe the same a doctor who ‘cures’ an apotemnophilia by removing a large limb.
apotemnophilia is a choice. Their body, their choice, and all that, but the doctor would spend quite a bit of time in jail for treating that problem with that cure.
E.A. Blair: It’s strange, there are lots of disturbing things in the bible, especially the Old Testament, but none of the ones you cite actually mentions abortion. Killings? Yes. Miscarriages? Yes. Abortion? Not even close. That’s the best you can do? Again, Progressives making shit up.
And please, don’t try to shock anyone with images of God killing or ordering others to be killed. To say that that is old is a bit of an understatement. It’s been written down for all to see for like a few thousand years. What did you think the story of Noah was about? Rainbows? Unicorns? A rained out birthday party? What about ‘pass over’? A kite festival? People died dude. Lots of fucking people died.
Shocking right?
That’s right Amazed, we made it all up. This is like trying to talk to a very small child or that funny SNL character Gilda Radner played so well. But truthfully, when someones mind is that closed it just isn’t worth the time.
I live in Melbourne, Victoria, which recently legalised abortion up to 24 weeks with very little obstacle. Later-term abortions (25 weeks and onwards) require the considered medical opinion of two separate doctors.
This gives the mother much greater control over her own body, and her reproductive rights.
The legalisation debate had just as many heated opponents, and I thought the terminology was quite interesting. Anti-abortionists call themselves “pro-life” (the inference being that those in favour of legal abortion are anti-life), but let’s call it what it is: “anti-choice”, or “anti-freedom”.
Don’t get me wrong, I do NOT advocate abortion as a first-choice in contraception, nor do I advocate unsafe sex. But I am absolutely livid that anyone would try to take away my legal right to control whether I bring a child conceive through rape, or a child I cannot care for, or a child who will be born with a debilitating, painful condition that will cut their life short and rob what few years they have of any real quality… How dare anyone rob me of the right to choose whether to bring such a child into the world?
I feel deeply for any girl or woman facing that choice, and all I hope is that whatever she decides, it is a choice she is free to make, with the support of her loved ones and her society’s laws. Anything else is a gross violation of basic human rights.
TheCloudancer: excellent rebuttal. Case closed I guess.
…
No wait! You are a poopie head!
There. Do I win the argument now? Name calling wins arguments right?
Unless you, or “Science!” can prove that the fetus is not a human, then there really should not be an argument. If you don’t have proof but still are willing to allow hundreds of thousands of possible humans to be ‘legally’ killed every year, all on the justification of “but what about rape!” then just say so.
If however you have the proof that the fetus is not human, then yes, there should also be no argument. If it’s not human, then it has no more value than any other lump of flesh. Just give the proof.
TheCloudancer: I forgot to add:
book chapter:verse
You made the claim. In fact you claimed ‘lots’. list some.
Blair tried but he had a problem with reading comprehension. Maybe you can do better.
Maybe just a better imagination.
Amazed, to what “value” do you place on the victim of rape, the victim of incest? Woman that can’t possibly take care of a special needs child, or can even carry a fetus to full term because of illness, or any range of reasons why a female can’t carry a baby to full term. Even if we except that argument that the unborn are not human, and I think they are, but I still feel that choice is more important then forcing YOUR WILL onto a girl/woman, what she should do with her OWN body when it is none of your BUSINESS, least of all the governments. Not everyone believes in God, but we are suppose to impose our will onto victims of a crime, or an unwillingness to have and raise up an unwanted baby because your beliefs are much more important?
By her logic, it is also God’s plan whenever a child is aborted, so she should be in favor of it.
It’s estimated that at least 25% of all fertilized human eggs miscarry (i.e., spontaneously abort), and that the figure may be higher because of spontaneous abortions that occur before the women affected even know they are pregnant. That would make god the #1 abortionist in the world.
Amazed, I’d reply to your rants, but you’re not worth the effort of typing.
There are some people here who does not even read the BIBLE, there are many examples there that God allow sufferings for some purpose. Try to read BIBLE first.
The “God’s plan argument” is a logical fallacy. Assuming there is a “God” with a “plan”, there is no way to know whether “His plan” was for ANY pregnancy to be brought to term or terminated or miscarried etc. Perhaps many conceptions happen simply to be terminated as some sort of emotional test for the mother to overcome. The same way an innocent person can be murdered in “God’s plan”, so can a fetus be terminated in “God’s plan”. To claim “God’s plan” as an argument to condemn or support any action whatsoever is to claim infinite knowledge of the universe and makes you an idiot.
The Bi-Bull is a book that has been translated and translated and then translated again. The meaning of the words often at the whim of the translator. I actually have read the Bi-Bull and it has some wonderful parables in it, some teachings by different men, and some cautionary tales. I am of the opinion that the translations, by men in power, fit the social mores of the times in which they lived.
Conservatives are worried about abortion and killing a human being when all throughout time, so so many battles and murders have been committed in the name of the god of each group’s choice, and it is still happening. Think they should regroup and start accepting each religion and each belief with respect and act in “the” godly manner of their choice.
E.A. Blair: miscarriage equals abortion? I’ve read that before, but I didn’t actually think anyone was thick enough to take it seriously.
It would be like saying that natural death equals murder. (“studies show that 75% of all adults die natural deaths. Nature is the world’s biggest murderer. Murder should be legal. This is retarded.”)
You either knew that when you were typing it, or you are very very stupid person.
Janine: I have an 8 year niece who likes to say that she read War and Peace, when in fact all she did was skim and read a paragraph here and there without understanding most of what she read, or even many of the words (it started as a joke when her dad saw her looking at it, “my daughter is a genius!”). Her brother likes to say that he’s the Hulk. Both of them will eventually grow out of saying silly things that everyone knows is untrue. Perhaps you will too one day.(did you by any chance read War and Peace on the say day that you read your bi-bull).
As for the translations of translations, fortunately for you the original languages (mostly Greek and Hebrew) are still available for you to refer to. Not that you will, that would be admitting you’re wrong. (which, as a Progressive, you are probably wont to do)
If one is truly Pro-Life they cannot believe in capital punishment, they cannot believe in war for any reason, they cannot stand by and allow hunger and abuse and poverty and any form of human suffering. If they do not feel this way then they are simply anti-abortionist and hypocrits. If you call yourself Pro-Life and you do not fit the above you are lying to us and yourself.
As for Amazed, E.A. Blair answered quite nicely before I even saw your post so why bother. Blair also said pretty much what I think, it’s simply not worth my time to reply.
Cloudancer, you pretty much said about all I have left to say on the subject. I also say you can’t claim to be pro-life if all you care about is the fetus and you don’t give crap about the kid once it’s born, as so many anti-abortionists seem to do.
As for reading the bible, I have access to a scholar who can read it in its original languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and New Testament Greek. I find that the further away I get from bibe-based religion, the better I understand the book that fuels it and the more I understand it the less I like it.
E.A.,
Ditto. Fantasy based on fantasy is no way to make an argument about anything.
Those who rely on “faith” for their arguments quite typically become misologists; mistrusting reason, and then progressing into a fear of rational argument.
Why? I suspect because facts threaten their life-long and closely-held narrative or meme, and they aren’t likely to give it up easily, no matter how superstitious it is revealed to be.
It sounds like your intellectual quest will lead you to The Freedom From Religion Foudation.
And if it does, welcome aboard.
TheCloudancer and E.A. Blair: nice circle jerk boys. Neither of you have said anything, but both rely on what the other said. Progressives really are awesome. They are like dealing with children who have no understanding of logic, reason or really any critical thinking. Like eternally ignorant teenagers for whom everyone else are idiots.
For instance, confusing justified killing (e.g. self defense or capital punishment or even national defence) with murder. If you can’t see that sometimes killing can be justified, then you are being purposefully ignorant (Surprise!).
If you can’t tell the difference between justified killing and unjustified killing (i.e. murder) then you are frightening.
As to your concern about pro-lifers being pro-death penalty: It always makes me laugh when some Pro-choicer is against the death penalty. It’s only state murder if the person being killed has raped and killed someone? But if they are innocent, then no worries?
You: save the pedophile rapist murders, kill the babies (or ‘probably’ not human fetus’ anyways).
Me: kill the pedophile rapist murders, save the babies.
Who’s more consistent again?
Again, for the terminally slow (I’m looking at you Blair and Cloudy) there really should not be any argument here. If you can prove that the fetus is not fully human, then by all means shred that pesky lump of flesh. If you can’t prove that it’s not fully human then you are saying that you are okay with killing hundreds of thousands of possible babies which, again, would be truly frightening (and very Progressive).
The whole “rape!” and “incest!” thing is simply a red herring. Not only are the cases of pregnancy resulting from those terrible acts pretty rare (i.e. compared the number of abortions) but even if the the proposal was to ban general abortions but to allow them in cases of rape, incest, physical danger to the mother or sever birth defects, the Progressive mind will still argue for full choice. There doesn’t have to be ANY reason, just personal choice, and that’s why rape and incest are just red herrings.
A quick thought game (Blair and Dancer, not that you’re simple minded or anything, but I would recommend not playing as you will not do well (i.e. it’s a ‘thought’ game and you’re at an automatic disadvantage)):
Q: at what point is it wrong to kill the baby? include reasoning and data points that you used to reach your conclusion. extra points for consistency.
I’ll start you off with some suggestions:
1. up to 1 year after birth?
2. up to 6 months after birth?
3. the day after birth?
4. after the first breath?
5. crowning?
6. full term?
7. brain function?
8. heart function?
9. point at with 50% of premature babies survive for a year?
10. 10% survival?
11. examples of some demonstrated survivals?
12. a single example?
Saw this on the Digg thread for this post. It’s a good question.
If God can do anything, then why does his plan involve fucking us over every chance he gets?
If the suffering of billions is all part of ‘His Plan’ it means the end justifies the means.
Why does God even need a master plan? Is he supposed to be some kind of comic book super-villain?
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus (BC 341-270)
Of course, “God” is a human invention.
“In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.”
— Liner notes, Jethro Tull’s “Aqualung” 1971
Can someone explain to me WTF is a “progressive”? By dictionary definition 1 it would me “forward moving, advancing. Politically it means “Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods”. That sounds pretty good to me so why does Amazed make it sound wrong. I think I like being a “progressive” even though I am a hardline fiscal conservative, NRA member and Vietnam Veteran that is more Pro-Death then Pro-Life I’m going to take it as a compliment.
Cloudancer … I also am a Vietnam era vet (8 years in and around Southeast and Northeast Asia) and am a staunch fiscal conservative although I am left of center on almost all social issues. I am proud when I hear someone call me a “progressive” even if, in their tiny little brain, they mean it as an insult.
Charlie, Welcome home! I would tend to agree with you on social issues. Illiterate Fundies tend to rant and rave against abortion then rant even louder about Aid to Dependent Children and medicade that is so necessary to care for the children. They don’t want to pay for public education or school meals in poor neighborhoods. I’ve been paying into Social Security since 1962 and congress has been using it and replacing it with IOU’s. Now these idiots are saying SS is an entitlement program. We pay unemployment out of our wages so we will have something to help if we are unemployed. How dare anyone say that is entitlement. We are entitled to it because we paid for it.
I paid over $70,000 in income tax last year. For that kind of money I expect to drive on decent roads, cross rivers on safe bridges (I crossed the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis a couple days before it collapsed), buy properly inspected food at the grocery store and have my oil pumped out of the ground safely. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on useless Cheney revenge wars and private industry bailouts. Is that to much to expect?
SHARRON ANGLE is an idiot.
Why? Because all the Tea baggers are idiots by clear demonstration. They want their taxes lowered but they don’t want to give anything up (“Keep yer guvment hands off my Social Security”).
Most of them still want to be embroiled in expensive foreign wars that were never paid for or sacrificed for by the hawks who got us into them. They are protesting Obama raising their taxes when 95% of us have had our taxes lowered by his administration. The IRS announced that they have the lowest amount coming in this year they have had since the 40s.
The Teabaggers are nothing more than racist zombies – the undead. They are ready to be programmed by zombieMasters like Sarah Palin without a thought in their heads. People who follow Palin because they like her politics are truly bereft of judgement. Palin is a political whore who will follow the paycheck wherever it may lead. She as hollow as a candyless pinata.
Amazed, you are obviously a man. Stop telling women what to do with their bodies. When you get a uterus you can decide what to do with it.
Love your stuff Mario,Cheers
The thing that bothers me most about the abortion issue is that it never gets resolved and it is a distraction from very real problems that need our immediate attention.
Bravo, Alpha. I couldn’t agree more. The day Roe-v-Wade is overturned is the day the ultra conservatives will effectively rally the rest of us to real, serious political strength. They can try to stack the high court, but if they succeed they will shoot themselves in the foot. Middle America will see that the right is finally, truly out of control.
Hey Amazed,
For being such an opinionated critic, you have a surprisingly poor grasp of proper terminology. It is the quality of being a person, an entity entitled to protection from and subject to the law, that the fetus lacks. It is your burden of proof to illustrate that the fetus deserves the designation.
If God has a plan for us how do you know that plan is not to get an abortion?
I reckon the planet would be a whole lot better without the human species.
Le_Chimp … Your comment is right on the money.
dancer … That is being taken care of by BP, they may also be part of God’s plan.
Why do you all say God is at fault? God is Love. Satan is your enemy. Satan is the one who brings misery and all things awful, lustful, selfish, you name it and he’s behind it. God allows man to choose. Will man choose wickedness? Or will he choose God and follow his voice?
It is up to us. Do not blame God.
Sorry about the mini sermon but I have the truth. I have freedom from all the bondage. I have a way to escape the terriblness. A way of love, trust, and real happiness.
“I can’t change the world but I can make a difference.”
http://www.churchofgodinchristmennonite.net
or
USA
gospeltract@cogicm.org
CAN
info@gospeltract.ca
liz, do you believe in the idea of god as your father?
Subito: You hit it right on the head.
Thank you for the sermon, Liz. I am glad you are happy with your God.
My God, UnicornEasterbunny brings me hours of joy just like yours. I only wish he would define wickedness like your God. It would make things much easier for the baby killers.
Or… Maybe we just let the law decide whether it is better to have girls being butchered in back alleys like it used to be, or act like the other civilized countries of the world and make abortion legal, while trying to minimize the procedures in any way possible.
We waste precious resources arguing with irrational people.
If we could rationalize with religious people, there would be no religious people.
Time to move on??
OC Liberal:
I don’t want to question your intelligence, but you do realize that when you said “Bravo, Alpha. I couldn’t agree more” you were agreeing with his/her comment about abortion being a non-issue right? Which was strange for you to agree with and then follow up with your opinion that Roe-vs-Wade being overturned would “effectively rally the rest of us to real, serious political strength.” Do all Liberals get so worked up about simple distractions?
At least when you called Cloudancer an ” idiot by clear demonstration” for his view that SS was not an entitlement benefit that you could reduce as a way to cut expenses you didn’t first agree with him. (no worries though, even though your comment on the tea baggers was right after his, I’m pretty sure that he didn’t connect the two)
Liberal Progressives. You gotta love their logic and reasoning skills and the consistency of their ideas. Not as a group mind you, but at least individually. Or at least individually for specific issues. Oh shit, at least they know if they like vanilla ice cream. Or maybe not.
Amazed, thy true name is Strife. You don’t fool anyone.
Amazed:
You may enjoy putting word and intention into the mouthes and minds of others, but in the particular case of me, I only say one thing: Step up.
You are polluted with the arrogance of Glen Beck and the other leaders of your failed party.
You are quick to question the intelligence of others who disagree with you. Look in the mirror – that is where the ignorance exists. Not in the slicing and dicing of semantics on liberal websites. Go back to the Free Republic. They will gladly hoist you onto their shoulders and hail you as a hero. A hero among ignoramuses.
Happy Independence Day!!
OC Liberal: “putting word and intention into the mouthes and minds of others”
OC, you continue to leave me Amazed. I did neither. However, I have no doubt that you missed the irony of your comment considering that this whole blog posting started with the the blogger and most of the commenter’s doing exactly that about what Sharron Angle said and thought.
Back to you, so, do you, or don’t you, agree with Alpha’s statement that abortion is a non-issue/distraction? And do you or don’t you agree with your own statement that Roe-v-Wade is so important that it would rally ‘the rest of us’?
“A hero among ignoramuses.”
I love arguing with liberals. Facts are never their strong points.
So, if I call you a Libtard, do I win?
Amazed: Yes, you win. I have seen the error of my ways. To be called a Libtard was the final determining factor.
I now understand. Sharon Angel and Rush and that nice Mr. Beck… Sarah Palin, all the nice folks at FOX News, George Bush… Well, must I go on? These are the intellectual thinkers of our time. The truth tellers. Did I leave out Turd Blossom? My bad.
FACTS, why did I not see it before? You have opened my eyes. I once was blind, but now I see!! Why don’t liberals look at the facts?? Like the crapload of nuclear weapons we found in Iraq. Remember all those mushroom clouds. I’m glad we stopped those thermal nuclear detonations all over the mid East. Or the close relationship Sadam had with those 9/11 terrorist organizations. Heck we sure got to the bottom of the FACTS there. Or even the more recent Death Panels, THANK YOU QUEEN SARAH! That smart Mr. Barton from Texas. Who would step in to enlighten us about the abuses perpetrated against friendly oil companies like BP if we didn’t have TRUTH tellers from the vast spectrum of the political right?
It truly is the Libtards who can’t seem to find the truth.
And just one more thing. I know you find yourself to be REALLY smart, and I have no doubt your family tells you all the time, but just saying libtards like me can’t see the truth because it contradicts your particular world view does not make it so. Yes, I called teabaggers idiots (Martini involved). That is not really my style. But to many of us Progressives, we are up to here with their BS.
I will gladly use facts to make my point. The point you are trying to make, that I was inconsistent is an incorrect analysis on your part. I agree that abortion should be a non-issue because it doesn’t get resolved and it has been decided by the Supremes. That is consistent with my opinion that if the right wingers got the high court stack one day and overturned Roe-v-Wade, it would wake up the majority (who believe it should be a women’s choice) to just how bat sh#t out of control the right wingers are. It would push the pendulum back in a more moderate direction. Yes, I think our political leaders are MORE conservative than the majority of Americans, especially on certain issues.
OC, it’s not nice to feed the trolls.
=)
Janet, you have a point, but as I said, I am up to here with their BS. I guess if I feed the trolls they WILL keep showing up.
;)
“I now understand. Sharon Angel and Rush and that nice Mr. Beck… Sarah Palin, all the nice folks at FOX News, George Bush… Well, must I go on? These are the intellectual thinkers of our time. The truth tellers. Did I leave out Turd Blossom? My bad.”
Oooooo… names. Don’t forget the whiz kids at MSNBC, CNN, or ABC. Or personalities like Keith Olbermann, Sean Penn, Dan Rather, or that tight little Rachel Maddow. These are the cream of the Progressive intellectuals.
(do you remember when that high school drop out actress called Bush a retard and then shut the fuck up when a comparison between their educations and accomplishment was brought up? You know Bush’s IQ is estimated at about 130 right (above average)? Obama’s at about 115 (average). But Barry just sounds so durn smart! – except the the teleprompter is broken)
Do you remember that nearly EVERY SINGLE intelligence agency in the world thought that Saddam had an active WMD program? Have you read the Saddam purposefully perpetuated that myth to appear stronger than he was?
No, there are no ignorant Democrats who have problems with facts:
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/watercooler/story.aspx?storyid=119527&catid=108
Just Republicans.
Or those stupid head Tea Baggers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html?_r=1
(damn, wealthier AND better educated – and quite frankly, better looking)
But, that’s an anomaly. Libtards are usually so ‘s-m-r-t’. Right?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703561604575282190930932412.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
Find the 67.6% part. Hilarious. That’s like 400% (400%!) the rate of the libertarians.
I love Libtards because they don’t know that they’re libtarded.
Amazed,
your rants and name calling do nothing to further discussion on the article above.
Sarah Palin an intellectual thinker???? Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
George Bush’s IQ is estimated at 125 while Obama’s is estimated at between 130 & 165.
Bush’s college grades were mostly Cs while Obama graduated from the Harvard Law School Magna cum Laude.
Bush can’t even speak English well, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Wow … What an intellect George had.
Sorry Janine, My reply also adds nothing to the thread.
I guess you just said it all. If you think your guys are smarter then God bless you. There is really no debating what you already have figured out. Maybe your time would be better spent on Sarah Palin’s Facebook page.
I only hope the twisted dystopian world envisioned by your band of intellectuals never comes to pass. It would make George Orwell’s vision look like Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood.
For the record, I would hold up the journalistic acumen of any of the people you mentioned as a great example. Rachel Maddow can hold her own with anybody out there and often does. She doesn’t shy away from debate with any of your “smart” conservatives, they just wouldn’t dare try to step up to her. Yes, she is very smart and articulate, not to mention something your examples NEVER are: FAIR. She gives people she disagrees with a chance to state their case and then uses her substantial knowledge and communication skills to state her point of view. All without engaging in Ad hominem attacks for the sake of juvenile entertainment. None of the people I mentioned have the balls or ability to do that.
Sean Penn was in a boat pulling people out of the stinking water after Katrina days before the brilliant Mr. Bush lifted a finger.
And if you really think we attacked Iraq because the Bush administration thought there were WMDs, then naive is the kindest word I can use in describing you. Drink the Kool-Aid, dude.